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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:24 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Effes wrote:
Look at St Kilda's list and who has played for them this year. Lots of kids and no names. Newnes, Wright, Templeton, Webster, Saunders, Curren...nothing special. Loads of inexperience

Everyone would have said before the season started that our list was much better than St Kilda's.

Forget about results for the moment (no doubt they will experience some thumpings as young sides do) - one thing you notice from St Kilda early in the season is that they are playing for the coach.

You cannot say the same about Carlton - there is no enthusiasm.

Now people can say its a lack of leadership amongst the Carlton group but you rarely saw such a lack of enthusiasm under Ratten.

You can see it in the looks on their faces when they have possession.

There is so much confusion.


Confusion, and no confidence.

No confidence because the plan they are being asked to execute is ineffective and easily countered, and the players know it. The opposition knows it. We all know it. Surely Malthouse knows it, but perhaps he doesn't have any alternative.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:38 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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verbs wrote:
Effes wrote:
Look at St Kilda's list and who has played for them this year. Lots of kids and no names. Newnes, Wright, Templeton, Webster, Saunders, Curren...nothing special. Loads of inexperience

Everyone would have said before the season started that our list was much better than St Kilda's.

Forget about results for the moment (no doubt they will experience some thumpings as young sides do) - one thing you notice from St Kilda early in the season is that they are playing for the coach.

You cannot say the same about Carlton - there is no enthusiasm.

Now people can say its a lack of leadership amongst the Carlton group but you rarely saw such a lack of enthusiasm under Ratten.

You can see it in the looks on their faces when they have possession.

There is so much confusion.


Confusion, and no confidence.

No confidence because the plan they are being asked to execute is ineffective and easily countered, and the players know it. The opposition knows it. We all know it. Surely Malthouse knows it, but perhaps he doesn't have any alternative.


One part we probably don't look at enough is what defensive structures are in place.

Last year, Carlton were ranked 15th for uncontested possession differential. After round three this year we are ranked 18th (last)

There appears to be little plan to defend - no setup to stop the opposition moving the ball forward via uncontested possessions; whether that be from kickouts or after the opposition have inevitably gathered the ball in our forward line.

These defensive setups have little to do with talent and everything to do with coaching. After more than a year at the club, there is still no sign of any plan to counter/slow down opposition ball movement.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:00 am 
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Rod Ashman

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frank dardew wrote:
Anyone now who doesn't think Mick needs to start renovation
Perhaps we need to build the whole house

Me Frank. The renovation starts with the board, the CEO and the old bitter overpaid, under committed ex Richmond thug and C'wd egomaniac, all on the train to oblivion. The best thing about the Bomber thrashing is it lays our frailties bare. MM took the job knowing he had committed to a shot at a flag in 3 years. If he got that commitment wrong maybe he can apologise and give the money back and go back to exercising his ego in the media and we can get a young smart hungry coach who can rebuild the club. MM represents the bad past of the club. One more year and he can escape into a bitter retirement.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:08 am 
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Craig Bradley

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Don't disagree Gerry with your analysis but in the short term surely cripps and graham play this week and they shouldn't be the only ins - surely white and rowe don't and don't again


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:25 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Effes wrote:
verbs wrote:
Effes wrote:
Look at St Kilda's list and who has played for them this year. Lots of kids and no names. Newnes, Wright, Templeton, Webster, Saunders, Curren...nothing special. Loads of inexperience

Everyone would have said before the season started that our list was much better than St Kilda's.

Forget about results for the moment (no doubt they will experience some thumpings as young sides do) - one thing you notice from St Kilda early in the season is that they are playing for the coach.

You cannot say the same about Carlton - there is no enthusiasm.

Now people can say its a lack of leadership amongst the Carlton group but you rarely saw such a lack of enthusiasm under Ratten.

You can see it in the looks on their faces when they have possession.

There is so much confusion.


Confusion, and no confidence.

No confidence because the plan they are being asked to execute is ineffective and easily countered, and the players know it. The opposition knows it. We all know it. Surely Malthouse knows it, but perhaps he doesn't have any alternative.


One part we probably don't look at enough is what defensive structures are in place.

Last year, Carlton were ranked 15th for uncontested possession differential. After round three this year we are ranked 18th (last)

There appears to be little plan to defend - no setup to stop the opposition moving the ball forward via uncontested possessions; whether that be from kickouts or after the opposition have inevitably gathered the ball in our forward line.

These defensive setups have little to do with talent and everything to do with coaching. After more than a year at the club, there is still no sign of any plan to counter/slow down opposition ball movement.



Our players are not taught on planning and execution.

Every time the ball was in dispute at a ruck contest they tapped the ball back 3,4 meters and had 2/3 unopposed team mates waiting, then they gained possession and they were off and running. Our players gained possession and blindly kicked forward to their unmarked players or handballed forward blindly to their unmarked players.

We fell forward at the half forward line because we kicked to our out numbered forwards (who were been raped) and as they again had the ascendancy to run and stop a team mate and make good decisions and by pass our loose men.

We are not disciplined on the team ethic.
I’m pretty sure I saw only a hand full of shepherds and the two I remember vividly were from 2 of our skinniest blokes (Simpson and Buckley).

We don’t give ourselves the best chances of scoring by attacking from the boundary but the interesting analysis that came from last night was seeing our new forward focal point.

How many times did we kick to Ellard as our main go to forward?

FFS Malthouse you the pinnacle at hustling the masses at believing your tools are to blame.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:28 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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redback wrote:
How many times did we kick to Ellard as our main go to forward?


He's Eddie's replacement at CHF

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:46 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Jamison: "Since Mick arrived, we're a much better team defensively. When we set it up properly, I believe it works."

Average points against

2008 - 107
2009 - 94
2010 - 91
2011 - 79
2012 - 88
2013 - 98
2014 - 119

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:47 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Effes wrote:
Jamison: "Since Mick arrived, we're a much better team defensively. When we set it up properly, I believe it works."

Average points against

2008 - 107
2009 - 94
2010 - 91
2011 - 79
2012 - 88
2013 - 98
2014 - 119

the game overall has opened up... its obvious.
teams are getting better at retaining and moving the ball

teams look for players that can run and spread as well as kick

if your midfield gets swamped... like ours does.... your defence doesnt stand a chance

thats got more to do with work ethic and midfield play than it does with defence

there is no such thing as a defence in the manner it once played

everybody is a defender

that means u make tackles stick... u chase and tackle... and you have a midfield that can fight to get the ball and then keep it... thus denying the opposition of scroing possibilities

dont get sucked in with particular stats...

its the overall game

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:36 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

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Effes wrote:
Now people can say its a lack of leadership amongst the Carlton group but you rarely saw such a lack of enthusiasm under Ratten.


I dispute that. Often saw them play with a lack of enthusiasm under Ratten. Especially towards the end.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Stefchook wrote:
Effes wrote:
Now people can say its a lack of leadership amongst the Carlton group but you rarely saw such a lack of enthusiasm under Ratten.


I dispute that. Often saw them play with a lack of enthusiasm under Ratten. Especially towards the end.


Nothing like last night. It was as bad as the Pagan days in the lead up to his sacking.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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melbourne lack enthusiasm... and they have had a few coaches
eve under paul roos they look unenthused

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:59 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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Regardless of what the club says we are renovating as we speak.

Mick was probably going to give the side the best chance of success by picking a more experienced side but the side will introduce more young players as the season goes on, not all at once as that would be counter productive.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:06 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

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I'd like to see Bootsma get some more games, until Docherty is ready. May well not make it at AFL level, but he's one of our few genuinely talented kids we've got on our list.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:06 pm 
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Ken Hunter

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Effes wrote:
As I have stated on numerous occasions, Ratten was a poor appointment by the board. Interesting summary from 2011

2011 Semi Final Against the Eagles and we are a kick away from a Prem Final without Waite, Kruezer and Gibbs. 2 years later and we are performing as a genuine bottom four side.

From that side:

Still on the List: Robinson, Murphy, Simpson, Carrazzo, Judd, Scotland, Henderson, Armfield, Ellard, Yarran, Jamison, Walker, Warnock, Tuohy, Garlett

Gone: Laidler, Duigan, O'hAilpin, Betts, Thornton, Joseph, Davies

No real notable outs other than Betts. At that stage we were top 4 (if not close to) in clearances and inside 50 differential with a young list profile. 50-75% of the list should have been on the rise.

Malthouse and Wiley have destroyed the great strength of this side - effective clean clearances.



..judd was in his inside machine prime, he carried the team more than I have seen any single player do in quite some time.. ..problem was, he is only one man, a mortal, and the system built around him was short lived..

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:10 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
Effes wrote:
As I have stated on numerous occasions, Ratten was a poor appointment by the board. Interesting summary from 2011

2011 Semi Final Against the Eagles and we are a kick away from a Prem Final without Waite, Kruezer and Gibbs. 2 years later and we are performing as a genuine bottom four side.

From that side:

Still on the List: Robinson, Murphy, Simpson, Carrazzo, Judd, Scotland, Henderson, Armfield, Ellard, Yarran, Jamison, Walker, Warnock, Tuohy, Garlett

Gone: Laidler, Duigan, O'hAilpin, Betts, Thornton, Joseph, Davies

No real notable outs other than Betts. At that stage we were top 4 (if not close to) in clearances and inside 50 differential with a young list profile. 50-75% of the list should have been on the rise.

Malthouse and Wiley have destroyed the great strength of this side - effective clean clearances.



..judd was in his inside machine prime, he carried the team more than I have seen any single player do in quite some time.. ..problem was, he is only one man, a mortal, and the system built around him was short lived..


Carried the team? Murphy won the AFLCA player of the year in 2011.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:23 pm 
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Ken Hunter

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..yes he did, and Judd nearly got his third Charlie, in fact bwuce was already tasting 'triple brownlow medallist judd' on for size midway thru the season.. ....but after four years carrying the team and getting smashed inside, we broke the Judd,, and now with Real heat on to murphos he can't mimic his form since Judd is no longer in his prime.. ..yes murphos has been injured, but prior to the injuries the cracks were showing.. .don't ever under estimate the mountain of work Judd did, and the easy ride others had because of it.. ..we shall see over the nex year or two how badly we will miss Judd.. ..hell, watch how much a cooked Judd will improve us when he returns to some form..

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:29 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Effes wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
Effes wrote:
As I have stated on numerous occasions, Ratten was a poor appointment by the board. Interesting summary from 2011

2011 Semi Final Against the Eagles and we are a kick away from a Prem Final without Waite, Kruezer and Gibbs. 2 years later and we are performing as a genuine bottom four side.

From that side:

Still on the List: Robinson, Murphy, Simpson, Carrazzo, Judd, Scotland, Henderson, Armfield, Ellard, Yarran, Jamison, Walker, Warnock, Tuohy, Garlett

Gone: Laidler, Duigan, O'hAilpin, Betts, Thornton, Joseph, Davies

No real notable outs other than Betts. At that stage we were top 4 (if not close to) in clearances and inside 50 differential with a young list profile. 50-75% of the list should have been on the rise.

Malthouse and Wiley have destroyed the great strength of this side - effective clean clearances.



..judd was in his inside machine prime, he carried the team more than I have seen any single player do in quite some time.. ..problem was, he is only one man, a mortal, and the system built around him was short lived..


Carried the team? Murphy won the AFLCA player of the year in 2011.



thats only because the attention wAs on judd not murphy

murphy cant handle attention and the spotlight

dal santo was meant to be the next ian stewart....never was of course
he wasnt a front liner

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:42 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Effes wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
Effes wrote:
As I have stated on numerous occasions, Ratten was a poor appointment by the board. Interesting summary from 2011

2011 Semi Final Against the Eagles and we are a kick away from a Prem Final without Waite, Kruezer and Gibbs. 2 years later and we are performing as a genuine bottom four side.

From that side:

Still on the List: Robinson, Murphy, Simpson, Carrazzo, Judd, Scotland, Henderson, Armfield, Ellard, Yarran, Jamison, Walker, Warnock, Tuohy, Garlett

Gone: Laidler, Duigan, O'hAilpin, Betts, Thornton, Joseph, Davies

No real notable outs other than Betts. At that stage we were top 4 (if not close to) in clearances and inside 50 differential with a young list profile. 50-75% of the list should have been on the rise.

Malthouse and Wiley have destroyed the great strength of this side - effective clean clearances.



..judd was in his inside machine prime, he carried the team more than I have seen any single player do in quite some time.. ..problem was, he is only one man, a mortal, and the system built around him was short lived..


Carried the team? Murphy won the AFLCA player of the year in 2011.

Murphy was getting a free run while Judd was at his best and the opposition worked out it was pointless trying to keep tagging the Judd machine... so they moved their attention (tags) on Murphy... he's struggled ever since.

Fact is a fit (and younger) Judd made this team (and coach) look a hell of a lot better... that is an indictment on the rest of our list, recruitment, development... basically our entire club.

MM has made it a point to have Judd play a lesser role... which one of our mids have stood up to take up the slack?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:43 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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we need to...

Image

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:55 pm 
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Serge Silvagni

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:12 am
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Stefchook wrote:
I'd like to see Bootsma get some more games, until Docherty is ready. May well not make it at AFL level, but he's one of our few genuinely talented kids we've got on our list.


Bootsma will never play again for the navy blue. And this has nothing to do with his ability more to do with a falling out with some senior players which I classify as school yard bullying by them


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