New injury puts Whitnall's future in doubt

Ockham's Razor · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:27 pm **Posts:** 1689

edited - whoops posted same thing twice

camel · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:45 pm

BlueIce wrote:

A great article by Jake Niall (almost an epitaph) and a good read since he's showing Lance more respect than some Carlton supporters who posted in this thread. The game appears to have passed Lance by and we might need to move on at the end of the year for the good of the club. Yet I still swore when I read the title because Lance was a very good footballer and he will be missed.

[url=http://realfooty.com.au/news/news/whitnall-at-the-crossroads/2007/06/20/1182019200968.html]Whitnall at the crossroads
[/url]

Quote:

The positive is that, following a visit to an orthopedic surgeon on Tuesday, he doesn't require a knee operation and, with a few weeks rest, he should be able to train again and give himself a chance to perform. But anything less than fanatical devotion will be noted by the Carlton hierarchy.

I doubt you'll read this, Lance, but if you do, please, for the sake of football's biodiversity and your own career, knuckle down for the next two months. Otherwise, you'll end up at another club, hopefully in the AFL. You're too good to be captaining Lalor at 28.

Agreed, that is a very good piece.

Ockham's Razor · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:27 pm **Posts:** 1689

Synbad,

I agree, we have a terrific group of young talent & I am very keen to see what they can give us.

I just think that your dislike/disdain for Lance is ill directed. I believe that there are plenty of others to blame for where Lance's career is at - the system has allowed him to get where he is. If the club had been firm on him, his negotiations, their expectations of him then I believe that things would have been very different.

Not all people are going to prepare the same nor apply themselves in the same manner - that is where the role of the coach/ football dept comes into it. They should be ensuring that those who don't have the skills to prepare / apply themselves are pushed and provided with the necessary skills. I get the feeling that club officials really took their eye off these tasks in the early 2000's.

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:48 pm

Ockham's Razor wrote:

Fair enough GWS, but my question was posed to Synbad, not due to any great insight that he has but rather because he seems to have an ability to turn on players/coaches/board members pretty quickly.

He is and has been bagging the shit out of Lance & has been calling for the "kids" to revive our great club - I too hope this happens. I simply want to know from him which kids are going to lead us out of our current plight and whether he is likely to turn on them in the future also?

Corey McGrath gave his all for the club, but his very best on field performance never once matched any of Lance's better performances let alone Lance's best.

The expectations that were put on Lance were done so by the club, the fact that he failed to live up to these expectations is in great part the fault of the club. They either didn't manage him correctly, chose the wrong person, didn't trade him or allowed him too much slack.

Fullfilling talent is to a very large degree a matter of mental application. If the whole package is complete (ie skill, application and mental stength) then usually an individual will achieve to a very high degree.

Corey had the application and mental strength but not the skill. Could Corey have improved his skills - if he practised more quite possibly - but he was never going to attain really lofty heights because he lacked equisite talent. Does he get bagged mercilessly because of this failing - not once (nor should he).

Lance has the skill but is possibly lacking in the other 2 areas. Why is Lance's shortfalls any worse than Corey's?

The fact that Lance had promise and ability is only part of the equation.

Surely the club / match committee / board are to blame for expecting more from Lance ( & rewarding him accordingly) than he was ever capable of giving. We all want a hero / champion & many hitched their hopes on Lance - he was unable to consistently deliver and now people are turning on him, when really they picked the wrong player to invest their hope in.

The difference is Cory could run. he helped his teammates out on the park with his running and his body.. and he helped the kids out at training.
Cory was no superstar but his passion to play football and to encourage his younger teammates and the way he transpfrmed himself from a flukey half forward to a warrior deserves the kind of credit that those kind pf players need.
A guy who was always first off at training...ran to the TAB in his tracky pants for a beer and pie but could point alot was not what we neededneed.

Im sure the kids would get much more positive output from a guy who did everything he could to make the grade with what he was god given than a guy who did FA and cruised ....

More players have the talent of Cory and make it because they bust their arse than are like Lance who has talent.

So youd hold up Cory as an example reather than Lance!
In my opinion the club was hasty pushing Cory out the door.
And easy on Lance!

Ockham's Razor · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:27 pm **Posts:** 1689

Synbad,

Quote:

In my opinion the club was hasty pushing Cory out the door.
And easy on Lance!

I totally agree.

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:52 pm

Ockham's Razor wrote:

Synbad,

I agree, we have a terrific group of young talent & I am very keen to see what they can give us.

I just think that your dislike/disdain for Lance is ill directed. I believe that there are plenty of others to blame for where Lance's career is at - the system has allowed him to get where he is. If the club had been firm on him, his negotiations, their expectations of him then I believe that things would have been very different.

Not all people are going to prepare the same nor apply themselves in the same manner - that is where the role of the coach/ football dept comes into it. They should be ensuring that those who don't have the skills to prepare / apply themselves are pushed and provided with the necessary skills. I get the feeling that club officials really took their eye off these tasks in the early 2000's.

OR.. i dont hate Lance as i dont know him personally.
I hate the kind of player he was at a time when it was about knuckling down....
It rubs off!!!

Lance Kouta and Campo did the same thing... they knew they wouldnt play in a flag but were chewing off the fat... happy to take their next cheque but compared to veterans at other clubs gave precious little in return.

Id take Kouta out of that group in one regard.
He was and always will be a Carlton great.
the other 2 were reliant on what they had around them to be good.

They couldnt do it when the infrustructrure at the beginning of their careers was taken away.
They knew it and didnt wish to put back into the club to help the kids what others before them did for them when they started out.

They had it too easy.. too early!!!

supercoach · **Joined:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:36 am **Posts:** 124

me too! he would have been handy on the ground but more of it. esp with the aborigenal kids we have.

Ockham's Razor · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:27 pm **Posts:** 1689

Synbad,

Other than your Kouta comments that is one of the more well reasoned & eloquent posts that you have ever written. :wink:

Rhys26 · **Joined:** Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:12 am **Posts:** 1730

Ockham's Razor wrote:

Synbad,

Quote:

In my opinion the club was hasty pushing Cory out the door.
And easy on Lance!

I totally agree.

Cory was no superstar but he was very stiff indeed. He should have been offered a one year contract and Teague should have been paid out for his final year.
Just another shit decision in a long list by Pagan.

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:10 pm

Ockham's Razor wrote:

Synbad,

Other than your Kouta comments that is one of the more well reasoned & eloquent posts that you have ever written. :wink:

OR.. noone said what Lance and Campo and Kouta had to do was easy.. it was hard!
BUT!!!.... that was their lot at this stage of where the team was at/
It was a duty.. to the club and to theyounger brigade!
It was a sacrifice they would have to make and they were to be paid handsomely to do it.
They had to do it so as the kids matured they would know when its their time.. they too must bear the brunt of responsibility as best they could for the next generation!
And in turn they understand whats expected of them .
The right of passage that each footballer takes from boy to man.

Every culture has it....in sport and outside of sport!

This is what we expect from you now that youre a man!!!

We lacked that!
We suffer from that!

I have great belief the next generation will understand it!!!.... and hopefully we never ever have to endure what were currently enduring!

And that is why those early picks are crucial.
as well as being great footballers.. the truly great ones early in a draft also possess greatness as individuals.
Were lucky to have a few of them onboard!
The next step is to extract that spo they are champion footballers and champion people.
when we achive this the club is also better off...as are we!

keogh · **Joined:** Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am **Posts:** 6408

Age can be a number in footy although its getting rarer by the week with the game becoming more athletic. It pains me to say it but the biggest pissed off factor was Crawford running his arse off whilst are veterans played as if they needed a wheelchair.

Whilst I can take or leave Crawford's offield narcissism he showed are old fellas what hard training and desire can get you.

The club need to get rid of Whitnall,Kouta,Lappin, Houlihan, Saddington, Ackland and Bannister if we want to up the ladder in say 3 years.

The Duke · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:35 pm

keogh wrote:

Age can be a number in footy although its getting rarer by the week with the game becoming more athletic. It pains me to say it but the biggest pissed off factor was Crawford running his arse off whilst are veterans played as if they needed a wheelchair.

Whilst I can take or leave Crawford's offield narcissism he showed are old fellas what hard training and desire can get you.

The club need to get rid of Whitnall,Kouta,Lappin, Houlihan, Saddington, Ackland and Bannister if we want to up the ladder in say 3 years.

Problem is, Keogh, what you're proposing there will see us return to the bottom for many more years. The players you mentioned have no trade value or will retire, so there isn't even an option that Richmond had with Ottens.

You'll put incredible pressure on the younger players physically and mentally whether you realise it or not.

The experts agree that our leadership is thin, why would you then cull it even further leaving an average age of about 12? Bring in 6 more young players next year to replace Teague, McLaren etc but try to retain as much experience as is possible.

Crawford plays like he does because he's got support from more experience who shoulder the majority of the midfield load. We don't have any experience in this area at all.

woof · **Joined:** Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:51 am **Posts:** 4919

The Duke wrote:

keogh wrote:

Age can be a number in footy although its getting rarer by the week with the game becoming more athletic. It pains me to say it but the biggest pissed off factor was Crawford running his arse off whilst are veterans played as if they needed a wheelchair.

Whilst I can take or leave Crawford's offield narcissism he showed are old fellas what hard training and desire can get you.

The club need to get rid of Whitnall,Kouta,Lappin, Houlihan, Saddington, Ackland and Bannister if we want to up the ladder in say 3 years.

Problem is, Keogh, what you're proposing there will see us return to the bottom for many more years. The players you mentioned have no trade value or will retire, so there isn't even an option that Richmond had with Ottens.

You'll put incredible pressure on the younger players physically and mentally whether you realise it or not.

The experts agree that our leadership is thin, why would you then cull it even further leaving an average age of about 12? Bring in 6 more young players next year to replace Teague, McLaren etc but try to retain as much experience as is possible.

Crawford plays like he does because he's got support from more experience who shoulder the majority of the midfield load. We don't have any experience in this area at all.

Hawthorn had 4 players in their team over the age of 25 on Friday night :roll:

All their kids played in a team that copped regular floggings ... now they hand them out.

Smell the roses.

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:54 pm

It is more and more evolving into a young mans game.
Its actually a testiment to the TAC and how well kids are being prepared for AFL football these days.
More and more older legs cant cope...

GWS · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:54 pm

The Duke wrote:

keogh wrote:

Age can be a number in footy although its getting rarer by the week with the game becoming more athletic. It pains me to say it but the biggest pissed off factor was Crawford running his arse off whilst are veterans played as if they needed a wheelchair.

Whilst I can take or leave Crawford's offield narcissism he showed are old fellas what hard training and desire can get you.

The club need to get rid of Whitnall,Kouta,Lappin, Houlihan, Saddington, Ackland and Bannister if we want to up the ladder in say 3 years.

Problem is, Keogh, what you're proposing there will see us return to the bottom for many more years. The players you mentioned have no trade value or will retire, so there isn't even an option that Richmond had with Ottens.

You'll put incredible pressure on the younger players physically and mentally whether you realise it or not.

The experts agree that our leadership is thin, why would you then cull it even further leaving an average age of about 12? Bring in 6 more young players next year to replace Teague, McLaren etc but try to retain as much experience as is possible.

Crawford plays like he does because he's got support from more experience who shoulder the majority of the midfield load. We don't have any experience in this area at all.

Do you really think that age and experience equates to leadership?

keogh · **Joined:** Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am **Posts:** 6408

The Duke wrote:

keogh wrote:

Age can be a number in footy although its getting rarer by the week with the game becoming more athletic. It pains me to say it but the biggest pissed off factor was Crawford running his arse off whilst are veterans played as if they needed a wheelchair.

Whilst I can take or leave Crawford's offield narcissism he showed are old fellas what hard training and desire can get you.

The club need to get rid of Whitnall,Kouta,Lappin, Houlihan, Saddington, Ackland and Bannister if we want to up the ladder in say 3 years.

Problem is, Keogh, what you're proposing there will see us return to the bottom for many more years. The players you mentioned have no trade value or will retire, so there isn't even an option that Richmond had with Ottens.

You'll put incredible pressure on the younger players physically and mentally whether you realise it or not.

The experts agree that our leadership is thin, why would you then cull it even further leaving an average age of about 12? Bring in 6 more young players next year to replace Teague, McLaren etc but try to retain as much experience as is possible.

Crawford plays like he does because he's got support from more experience who shoulder the majority of the midfield load. We don't have any experience in this area at all.

Agree to some degree that Crawford has more support but also that he has looked after himself more . So who do you think should get the arse at the end of the year?

The problem is this
1Whitnall is too slow and short for the modern game now shit knee or no shit knee. Should have been off loaded a few years ago when we had the chance.
2 Kouta can only play 60 odd minutes a game. Restricts are use of the bench. Should have retired last year.

3 Ackland is shit .Just asked the 2 clubs who got rid of him.

4 Lappin I can cut some slack but a sign that a player is nearing the end is vast inconsistency. He is 32

5 Houlihan 148 games and 10 kilos later is still the same. When the game is hot and the ball needs to be won he goes missing. Delist him. You may get a fourth round pick. There have been some wins for clubs around the 50th pick.
6 Saddington. No good. Should have gone for young kid at pick 52
7 Bannister Has a crack but ultimately will be disappointing.

In relation to Lappin, Whitnall ,Kouta,Houlihan and Saddington these guys ,our so called senior players have shown little if not no leadership for years yet they still get a game. As far as support for the young kids it would make no difference . I would rather a kid like Kennedy being told by DP that CHF is your spot for the rest of the year. See how you go.

It makes no difference support wise to our young players because they dont have the support on the field from our experienced players anyway.

We need to let go these guys as soon as possible'

And that wont happen until we get a new coach and smarter MC.

Finally look at a guy like McGlynn. Runs his guts out. He wasnt picked in the draft, but has the right attitude has pace . He was a rookie. And we have a guy like Houlihan who cant get out of first gear and see it time and time again. If you recruit smart you can become successfull. We wont be if we keep these guys in 08

grrofunger · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:57 pm

Hey at least Lance runs to the TAB

chubbyruss · **Joined:** Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:59 am **Posts:** 8631

Its all Pagan's fault. He keeps moving him from CHF to CHB then fronCHB to CHF

klompie · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:36 pm

Pickle wrote:

Bluebernz wrote:

According to the reports I've seen , Lance's knee is degenerative and doesn't require surgery.

If someone can't train for 5 weeks, has a degenerative knee problem that doesn't require surgery - where does that leave him?

in a Pickle?

Loyal Carltonian · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:54 pm

We need to bite the bullet and do what Hawthorn did when they offloaded the likes of Thompson, Rawlings, Holland, Everitt and Hay with Vanderberg to come. They are a better club for it now.

Then again you need to have a coach with the foresight to do these things.

New injury puts Whitnall's future in doubt

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