The absurdity of demanding 3+ roles out of Young, meanwhile $1.7m is good enough for 15 minutes a quarter…

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

As Pagen use to say - Don't give problems, give me solutions.

1stly - where did you get 15 mins from. Over the past 2 seasons TDK averages 75+% game time.
2ndly - tell us all about the absurdity of 3 + roles. I only mentioned pinch hitting in the ruck and maybe defense.
3rdly - always happy to hear your thoughts. It is all just opinions afterall.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

If that's the way you want to remember the debate Drewgirl, that's fine.

I don't agree that's where it all started and why.

Pitto hadn't played till round 5. I heard Pitto was being eased back to play as the No 1 ruck because Vossy liked TDK forward and the idea of the 3 headed monster, then I shared that and off went the nays. Pitto had good years before that, but that was all thrown out the door, because we were winning, albeit not convincingly.

The debate started with some posters suggesting the MODERN game doesn't warrant 2 rucks, that no one would play 2 rucks, that Voss has rocks in his head to have 2 rucks, and questions whether TDK was strong enough to take on the bigger Briggs, Gawns, Grundies ... that was the crux of it.

The argument was simply "

why would a coach play 2 rucks and why shouldn't they?".

Some posters went as far as saying Vossy would never play 2 rucks. That all started before round 5 because Pitto didnt appear in the first 4 games, then we played Crows and Crows kicked 3 goals with 6 mins left on the clock, when Pitto had beaten his opponent big bad O'Brien, and was rested ... we thought we had the game won. ...but he was still blamed for the loss...then we won the next 2, and he starred in the GWS game and TDK kicked 3....then the argument changed to become Pitto focussed rather than simple the 2 ruck debate we were having. It was obvious some coaches do go with the 2 rucks, and some coaches dont. Cats don't have one ruck.

Then it changed to horse for courses, when 2 rucks would suffice,after the GWS victory. Point is Vossy DID pick 2 rucks when they were fit....not because I said so, but because it was his preference, and it was common knowledge. Some continued to post that it would never happen, or the idea was "furphy" (see Pregame thread vs Adelaide).

Some posters said a ruck would never be a sub and it had never hapopened, and the proof was that it had happened, and the coaches at the time had their reason. Just above Cazz even suggests Young as a sub. They are all considerations coaches and football committees make depending on the opposition. Anything can happen. Nothing is off the table. That was my point.

Pitto this year may play with TDK, only because its a possibility depending on opposition, injury etc but so far this year Pitto hasnt shown his best, and I'm hoping O'Keefe really comes on this year because I dont like Harry or Cripps rucking against Nankervis, Briggs types for obvious reasons, made clear last year.

Yes we did post about 2 TDK's or a TDK and Luke Jackson ets, which still supported the r2 ruck model, but we didnt have 2 TDKs etc. Pitto played well in a couple games when 2 rucks played, and some posters had second thoughts on their position.

Its all in the Adeliade Crows thread, and the following week in the GWS thread, and when 2 rucks were played by winning teams, Freo, Sydney, Pies (Cox and Cameron) etc etc

Lesson to be learned from the debate is that Coaches make decisions on 2 rucks and Posters don't. If coaches choose to go with 2 rucks, they have reasons for doing so, and those reasons aren't good enough for some posters.

Lets hope Nankervis doesn't deliberately maim TDK or Harry in round 1. Have a look at his record at the Tribunal over recent seasons. Its not because he's a nice player with a ton of skills.

Lets see what happens during the year. Like last year, nothing will surprise me, other than Motlop passing the ball to a player in a better position instead of going for a miraculous goal.

Glad this thread continues to keep on giving. Go Blues.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

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There is no footy god

I agree we should try Young as backup for TDK, but I also see it as a big risk as he struggles to impact the game outside his ruck role, and even when he is rucking he’s just breaking even.

Our biggest issue is lack of a clear second ruck option behind TDK.

Swingman

Did well in Defence when Weitering went off on Friday.
Did some nice blocking for Kemp in the forward line as the KPF allowing Kemp to roam and jump at high ball instead of doing the wrestling....even held his opponent by locking arms to create Fogs goal, and he won a lot of the ruck contests, when giving TDK a chop out, admitedly against the GWS 2nd fiddle ruckman Keefe.

I think TDK should have a couple of breaks during the quarter, not Vossy. Hence the 15 minute quarters for TDK. Is TDK worth $1.7M? Maybe he is for the Saints, but they have different reasons for making that kind of offer. Will that offer be good for Saints if it comes off? I don't think 15% of your salary cap should be sunk into one ruckman...but then again, with Marshall as their forst ruck, Saints may be looking at TDK as a KPF/ Ruck...still not worth stupid money.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

And yes TDK has come a long way since those hurley burley debates between me and braithy...a breath of dresh air our resident braithy.

TDK has proven to be and earned the mantle of No 1 ruck. Pitto is not a forward.

Just remember TDK doesn't do that roving all the time. He gets tired after 10 minutes then walks to positrion. AND against Briggs he was literally smashed into submission and got nowhere near the ball.

Have to look at his strengths and his weaknesses, and work solutions from there imo.

I don't like the idea of letting the opposition ruck control proceedings. You can try and read the tap, but if the opposition has no competition, they work out a way to make it difficult for the opposition ground ball players.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Yep, will continue to be our weakness until someone grabs the position and makes it theirs: O'Keefe, Young, Lemmey?

Silvagni? If we can get Sam De Koning keen on a move to the Baggers in 2026.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Bondi - I just personally dont like players who dont compete. Simple. We as a team should be past that now.

Pitto - He claims to be a combatative and physical ruckman. He has a big body.

What is his excuse of not being relied upon to take a mark as a ruckman ?

It does my head in when he stands around the ground being a liability and doing nothing.

Players kick it to him from the backline hoping to get a relieving mark. But he doesnt even offer that.

At least Casboult was able to give us that.

What we do need is a genuine big swingman with some shit about him.

At the moment, the best we have is Young. I thought Young was good on the weekend playing multiple roles. Just wish he had a stronger body and was more confident and assured. If he could be that, then we have what we need.

And TDK - If he wants the big bucks, then he should not be blowing up after 15 minutes. He should be fitter.

But of course he needs a chop out for sure, so we need to play a second ruck.

My biased thing, is that it not be Pitto. He makes us stagnant in the midfield.

Cmon we all see this - Surely.

15 is still 75% of 20. Time added on is… you won’t believe this… time ADDED ON. The clock stops for the rucks to get into position. The suggestion is to drop his output to even less than that by adding another couple of rotations.

Full back, half back (Jack is tall & small), ruck, deep forward (no such thing as a resting ruck)…

The solution for Young is full back, when Weitering isn’t playing. Young might be good, or he might not be. Either way, the point is moot. Grumble guts has made up his mind & the vibe shift when they’re both in the team is just enough to @#$%&! the flow amongst the rest of the team.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

I stand to be corrected by those more worldly, but an official AFL stat of 75% of TOG over the past 2 seasons is surely 75% of total game time, not 75% of 20 mins.

As this is a thread about Rucks, who would you like to see ruck in TDK's 25% absence and why?

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Calculate it any way you like. The suggestion is that he does less.

My thoughts on the ruck position are done, ad nauseum. You can use the search engine.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

What TDK showed when he was subbed in the Elimination Final, was that he has arrived. Maybe he was fresh from a long lay off, he was certainly fresher than everyone on the ground in the Elimination Final. I think that was the advantage TDK having missed 7 weeks of bruising footy, let alone a first half of a Final.

Nevertheless TDK was special and said to footy world he’s arrived and will be primed after one more preseason.

I still thinks he needs a chop out, not at the end of each quarter, but during the quarter to make more contests when rucking, so rotating with Harry is a good way if we have ar least 2 marking targets ahead of the ball. Charlie and Kemp/SOS do that.

The ruck position is a physical battle between the biggest (height and weight) players smash into each other. Injuries happen and rucks carry bruises and injury nearly every game . I really don’t like seeing Harry in the ruck with Xerri or Briggs or Nankervis or Cox or… jumping into him. We need him fit and firing in our spine as a KPF.

What’s the alternative? Young can play a great role for the team, but that’s for the coaches to work out. Other than Young, it’s SOS for me, but aim happy with SOS at CHB. He’s a better footballer than Liam Jones. Then there’s O’Keefe. We need a third tall who knows the firward craft and have synergy with Charlie and Harry, TDK has that.

We all hoped TDK would have a breakout year in 2023 and again in 2024. He was still skinny last year, and just because Pitto was No 1 ruck didn’t mean TDK didnt ruck or couldn’t ruck for 40% GT. In fact we won the Final vs Dees with Pitto as the battering ram vs Gawn, and TDK kicking 3 goals and when rucking late jumping over Gawn.


Pittonet circa 2023 was better that circa 2024 and after seeing Pitto against the Saints or seems circa 2024 is better than 2025 thus far. So yes, Pitto does slow us down and he doesn’t mark enough and is slow to get to kick down the line…which TDK is too when rucking for 90% straight in a quarter. Have to remember as you say TDK roves his own ball too, so expels more energy that vanilla ruckmen.

3 tall forwards who can mark does stretch defences. TDK is our No 1 ruck, no Doubr, so now the question remains, is Harry going to be rotating with TDK when Charlie is playing? Is that what we want? Looks like that’s the way we are going this year, unless Young takes Kemps spot….but Young is the Weitering replacement. Pretty important depth olayer is young

We should be flag favourites with Walsh winning Brownlow

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Hot take. We should play zero rucks.

Play an extra mid and rove the opposing ruckman's tap. The spare mid stands next to the ruckman, ready to tackle him if he grabs it.

I'm only half kidding. I would 100% be up for trying this if TDK gets injured.

Our banner could be:

Zero rucks given....

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#DonTheStash

quote="CK95"]Our banner could be:

Zero rucks given....[/quote]

If we’re going to play 2 rucks then I’d like the other to be a brute. I want someone that’ll soften the opposition up to make TDK’s life easier. I don’t think Pitto does that.

Interesting. I think you're implying 4 mids vs 3 mids and a ruck. I can see how it could work, but the probability of it working all game is low imo.

Watching games from TV makes it look like players are close to each other, when in actual fact there's plenty of space between the 4 match ups around the ball.

Easy to say that mids should read the opposition's ruck taps, but a tap to advantage gives the elite mids a slight advantage over their opponent. Footy is a game of inches. All the oppo ruck needs to do is a tap advantage in the right direction and their mid will win ball and pass it off at the speed of light. Opposition mids are always second guessing, and its not as easy as it seems to read opposition rucks.

Good midfields develop synergy throughout preseason, and hide their intent well, like a bowler hides the seam.

Just have to remember the 93 GF when Neale Daniher worked out Justin Maddens, Bradley's, Williams' hand signals at centre bounces, and then proceeded to blitz us in the first quarter ... and we know the damage that did

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

you win... this is it. it's not overly hard to grasp. pittonet is a really, really bad player and not afl standard.