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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:21 pm 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:57 pm
Posts: 452
Location: next to you in the outer
keogh wrote:
I had an interesting conversation with and old friend today on the phone
Rang him up to see how he was travelling.
I told him about TC and he laughed

Anyway we got onto Dylan Shiel and what is so good about him.
We both agreed with ball in hand he doesn’t look dangerous. You never think he is going to take a game apart. So why do clubs like us and Essendon** offer the kitchen sink to get him.

Contrast that with a guy like Sam Menegola. He is a mid. And a bloody good footballer. Big bodied. Bigger than most of his opponents more likely to mark ,beautiful kick gets its a lot solid footballer

Yet he was rejected by Fremantle and Hawthorn and busted his arse to get a game.
This year if you compare the two it’s pretty much even.
Menegola is one year older
Menegola went pick 66 in the National draft in 2015

This highlights the importance of recruiting.
Unlike most other aspects of the game it isn’t an exact science

But some clubs like Richmond and Geelong simply do it better overall

And some people on here don’t want to read that

Salary Cap
Soft cap
Draft
It’s a pretty much a level playing field
4 finals appearances (really 3)
No PFs
Wooden spoons
Simpson has played in roughly 220 losing games the most ever

Our recruiting trades list management are shitperiod
There’s your proof
Hopefully it will get better
It needs to
Because that where we fall short
It’s the number One area most important
In footy


I agree especially re Geelong, Richmond have been poor too, only recently got it right and I think Balme has been a catalyst for their success... he was also at Geelong during their success... the off-field team is vital in today’s game. We are getting better but still behind.
# get Balme


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:26 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:54 pm
Posts: 2521
bondiblue wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
cecil89 wrote:
Every team appears to run a core group of 4-6 midfielders who attend the bulk of centre bounces (e.g. 5 or more centre bounces in a game).

What is the core we want to see in 2021?

Cripps
Setterfield
Walsh
?
?
?



Dow
Kennedy
Fisher
SPS
Stocker
JSoS
Gibbons

..there's plenty to run through the middle without using Murphy or Curnow, although I think Curnow will rotate through the middle next year still..

..edit - names listed in no particular order..


Right on BKB

Martin
Cuningham
Honey
Philp
Kemp


There’s an opportunity for many of the above to have a burst or 2 in the middle, but the reality is that teams very rarely use more than a core group of 6 who regularly attend. This is where we’ll struggle to get all of SPS, Fisher, Cuningham, Dow, Stocker, Philp, Kennedy etc playing regularly in there. Some have to play as running half backs, outside wingmen, high half forwards or small forwards.

For me, the core group for 2021 should be:
Cripps
Setterfield
Walsh
Curnow
Dow
Martin

I’d run Fisher, Cuningham and SPS through there more than we have so far this year, but I’m not sure they’re in my core group.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:55 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3561
AGRO wrote:
cecil89 wrote:
keogh wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Well what a surprise. A bad loss and as usual, the negative viruses infect the site.

Suddenly Shane McAdam is Leigh Matthews and Jack Martin is a bust. :lol:
Yet if anyone wants to look at the facts, Jack Martins performance this year has been far superior to McAdams. More games played, more than 50% increase on possessions per game, better disposal efficiency, plays midfield so he gets clearances, more marks per game, more inside 50's, more score involvements, more pressure, same amount of goals per game (even though he also plays midfield), more metres gained etc etc etc.

And Hawthorn are suddenly the beacon on how to exit their older players (Yet they were running around wth about 10 players 30 or older this year).

Yes it was a shit loss and yes mistakes have been made but the reaction from some of the sooks on here has been embarrassing. It's like looking at a 5 year old who didn't get his bike for Christmas. Try looking at the reality instead of swallowing the opinions pushed by those with agendas. Funnily enough, they're the same posters who will tell you that you're the one that's uninformed.
Do your own research before joining the pile on. The list requires free agent additions but it isn't the bust we're hearing here. It just needs to be utilised to its strength. I have no doubt we'll play finals next year if we can nail the free agent and trade acquisitions required.

A percentage in excess of 95, contending for finals with 2 games to go. Has everyone suddenly forgotten where we were before this season?


The main reason Adelaide have been terrible is that their midfield has been missing most of the year. So Nicks through necessity put Laird in there. He has been a revelation. I’ve advocated to try Doc in there. Anyway with the Crouch brothers back and Sloane they have played some solid footy. Add Sholl who was a pick 64 a and their mids slaughtered us when it truly mattered.
Silvangi had 5 drafts and trade periods.Ed Curnow was at the club before he arrived. He is at the moment our second best mid by the length of the Flemington straight.
That’s the issue Austin must address. Our midfield is shit.


Interesting that you view the Crows playing a midfield quartet of M Crouch, B Crouch, Sloane and Laird as a good thing. I’ve read ad nauseam on here, not necessarily from you Keogh, that playing experienced players through the middle is to the detriment of young players?
Scholl and Schoenberg seemed to be able to find the footy and play on the periphery of their experienced teammates. Maybe Dow, O’Brien etc should watch and see how they did it.




Maybe Teague should have given more midfield minutes to SPS, Fisher, Dow (but for injury), O’Brien this year.

:wink:


Also wondering if Lachlan Scholl was ever invited to the Peter Dean Father/Son Academy, understand that Lachlan would not have qualified as a father/son pick because his dad never played enough games - but the point is we could have drafted him - was he even on our radar?


Was Ratten on our radar for the coaching job?

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:08 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3561
This has been discussed around the edges before but if we think Williamson is not a lock down defender, nor does he keep body contact...BUT, he is a beautiful raker of a kick (and fairly accurate)

Put him on a wing and put Walsh in the middle...Willo driving the ball inside 50 may be a joy to watch??? (of course, McKay et al dropping the ball I50 will then be excruciating to watch)

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:13 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25449
Location: Bondi Beach
cecil89 wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
cecil89 wrote:
Every team appears to run a core group of 4-6 midfielders who attend the bulk of centre bounces (e.g. 5 or more centre bounces in a game).

What is the core we want to see in 2021?

Cripps
Setterfield
Walsh
?
?
?



Dow
Kennedy
Fisher
SPS
Stocker
JSoS
Gibbons

..there's plenty to run through the middle without using Murphy or Curnow, although I think Curnow will rotate through the middle next year still..

..edit - names listed in no particular order..


Right on BKB

Martin
Cuningham
Honey
Philp
Kemp


There’s an opportunity for many of the above to have a burst or 2 in the middle, but the reality is that teams very rarely use more than a core group of 6 who regularly attend. This is where we’ll struggle to get all of SPS, Fisher, Cuningham, Dow, Stocker, Philp, Kennedy etc playing regularly in there. Some have to play as running half backs, outside wingmen, high half forwards or small forwards.

For me, the core group for 2021 should be:
Cripps
Setterfield
Walsh
Curnow
Dow
Martin

I’d run Fisher, Cuningham and SPS through there more than we have so far this year, but I’m not sure they’re in my core group.


I agree.

I was adding to the list of candidates for 2021 and beyond.

Like your group a lot. A lot. And agree its really 6, but a few more through there, if good enough, like the extra 3 you mention, is a good idea for many reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:20 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25449
Location: Bondi Beach
Wouls be thrilled to get Carlton man from a Carlton family, with pace to burn and only 26yo: Saad.

Get Saad for a 2nd rounder> if its 2 x 2nd rounders, then get him.

He is what we need and we should have got instead of Fisher and Macreadie, and took a punt on Williamson.
I don't know what SOS thought but at the time we needed to build the backline after getting the spine sorted.

Want him badly and believe he is gettable.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:28 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:54 pm
Posts: 14686
Location: The Vodka Train
bondiblue wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
cecil89 wrote:
Every team appears to run a core group of 4-6 midfielders who attend the bulk of centre bounces (e.g. 5 or more centre bounces in a game).

What is the core we want to see in 2021?

Cripps
Setterfield
Walsh
?
?
?



Dow
Kennedy
Fisher
SPS
Stocker
JSoS
Gibbons

..there's plenty to run through the middle without using Murphy or Curnow, although I think Curnow will rotate through the middle next year still..

..edit - names listed in no particular order..


Right on BKB

Martin
Cuningham
Honey
Philp
Kemp

There's a cupboard full of them, about to do another preseason.

I just hope our coaches and our players learned a lot from 2020 and build on those foundations.

They say you learn more from mistakes.

Hey BKB, didn't we meet once upon a time at The Royal in Randwick? Carlton game?
You helped me out on The Blue View or was it CSC forum?



..whoops, completely forgot Martin and Cunningham..


....nah, that wasn't me.. ..i haven't met anybody from..

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 5537
Location: Bridge, Starship Enterprise
bondiblue wrote:
Wouls be thrilled to get Carlton man from a Carlton family, with pace to burn and only 26yo: Saad.

Get Saad for a 2nd rounder> if its 2 x 2nd rounders, then get him.

He is what we need and we should have got instead of Fisher and Macreadie, and took a punt on Williamson.
I don't know what SOS thought but at the time we needed to build the backline after getting the spine sorted.

Want him badly and believe he is gettable.

Saad is a cheat's player and we have to deal with you know who.

Need to give up our 1st rounder and Cripps for him.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:53 am 
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Bruce Comben

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:16 am
Posts: 31
Regarding the 6, I would throw all the mids into that mix this preseason and work out which are the best 6. The ones who are there about's but don't make the cut can hone their craft in the 2's week in week out. We need to access who can become elite in attributes like Strength, Skill, Speed etc. Cripps is our only midfielder who atm is elite at strength/clearance.

Cripps/Martin/Setters/Walsh/Dow/Cunners/SPS/Fish/Gibbons/Stocker/Philp/Kemp/Curnow and potentially a new mature midfielder. Do we really need Murph in that mix?

You can add Kennedy or JSOS to that mix for bigger bodies, but in my opinion they should be both competing for the same position as a medium forward OR possible medium back (plowmans position)

The others who are off there pace require a serious discussion on whether they are better suited at another position OR be traded/delisted.

Fisher, SPS and Gibbons are all the same player. A dilemma we have to resolve. In my opinion, if they all want to play midfield then one has to be traded this summer. Due to their size we cant have more than 1 through the centre at the same time. Hence I believe this is why they are trying SPS back and Fisher forward.

Who's your pick?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:02 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
99prelim wrote:
This has been discussed around the edges before but if we think Williamson is not a lock down defender, nor does he keep body contact...BUT, he is a beautiful raker of a kick (and fairly accurate)

Put him on a wing and put Walsh in the middle...Willo driving the ball inside 50 may be a joy to watch??? (of course, McKay et al dropping the ball I50 will then be excruciating to watch)


I'm not sure he has the awareness and nous to be a mid.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:07 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10613
bondiblue wrote:
Wouls be thrilled to get Carlton man from a Carlton family, with pace to burn and only 26yo: Saad.

Get Saad for a 2nd rounder> if its 2 x 2nd rounders, then get him.

He is what we need and we should have got instead of Fisher and Macreadie, and took a punt on Williamson.
I don't know what SOS thought but at the time we needed to build the backline after getting the spine sorted.

Want him badly and believe he is gettable.


Witherden is a much better player and we can get for a better price. IMO, Saad will stay at Essendon* - this is just posturing.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:16 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
I'd do what Freo have done and play Cripps mostly forward in 2021. Our young mids need to learn to fend for themselves and thrive at winning the ball. I keep thinking about way back before Geelong became a power house , their midfield was young and bit by bit they improved and them one day they cracked the ceiling and never looked back. It was a young group, guys like Corey and Barrel and they had to make it on their own and eventually did. Our boys like Setterfield and Walsh and Dow need to go through the same journey.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:16 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
Bartel


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:18 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:56 am
Posts: 19501
Location: Progreso, Yucatan, MEXICO
Paddycripps wrote:
I'd do what Freo have done and play Cripps mostly forward in 2021. Our young mids need to learn to fend for themselves and thrive at winning the ball. I keep thinking about way back before Geelong became a power house , their midfield was young and bit by bit they improved and them one day they cracked the ceiling and never looked back. It was a young group, guys like Corey and Barrel and they had to make it on their own and eventually did. Our boys like Setterfield and Walsh and Dow need to go through the same journey.

If we do that, he needs to get rid of the yips first.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:12 pm 
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John James

Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:13 pm
Posts: 697
Is anyone else concerned with our Key Position defensive stocks? Jones will be 30 at the start of next season. Casboult can go back but is a year older than Jones. Macreadie is incredibly injury prone and he doesn't have enough exposed form for me to be convinced he will get to the level yet. Goddard is a solid citizen but not going to make it. BSOS is largely an unknown? We've been lucky Jones and Weiters got through the season unscathed. These guys also take a long time to develop.

There are more pressing issues but I feel like this one shouldn't be ignored either.

Anyone want to put my mind at ease before I head off to the worry room?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:53 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 6047
Brently8 wrote:
Is anyone else concerned with our Key Position defensive stocks? Jones will be 30 at the start of next season. Casboult can go back but is a year older than Jones. Macreadie is incredibly injury prone and he doesn't have enough exposed form for me to be convinced he will get to the level yet. Goddard is a solid citizen but not going to make it. BSOS is largely an unknown? We've been lucky Jones and Weiters got through the season unscathed. These guys also take a long time to develop.

There are more pressing issues but I feel like this one shouldn't be ignored either.

Anyone want to put my mind at ease before I head off to the worry room?

We should have Marchbank coming back and Kemp too. Not sure if Kemp will be a KP or mid, but I get the impression he might start in defence. I can’t see Goddard or Macreadie on the list next year. Personally, I’d give BSOS another year.

You’re about us being fortunate that Jones & Weitering stayed healthy; we would have been really screwed without them, especially Weitering.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:56 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Posts: 24652
Location: Kaloyasena
Brently8 wrote:
Is anyone else concerned with our Key Position defensive stocks? Jones will be 30 at the start of next season. Casboult can go back but is a year older than Jones. Macreadie is incredibly injury prone and he doesn't have enough exposed form for me to be convinced he will get to the level yet. Goddard is a solid citizen but not going to make it. BSOS is largely an unknown? We've been lucky Jones and Weiters got through the season unscathed. These guys also take a long time to develop.

There are more pressing issues but I feel like this one shouldn't be ignored either.

Anyone want to put my mind at ease before I head off to the worry room?



Macreadie was very good last weekend filling in for Geelong in a scratch match - can advise that they were very impressed.


:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:48 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:40 pm
Posts: 7431
Brently8 wrote:
Is anyone else concerned with our Key Position defensive stocks? Jones will be 30 at the start of next season. Casboult can go back but is a year older than Jones. Macreadie is incredibly injury prone and he doesn't have enough exposed form for me to be convinced he will get to the level yet. Goddard is a solid citizen but not going to make it. BSOS is largely an unknown? We've been lucky Jones and Weiters got through the season unscathed. These guys also take a long time to develop.

There are more pressing issues but I feel like this one shouldn't be ignored either.

Anyone want to put my mind at ease before I head off to the worry room?


Yeah,reckon you correct B8...................having a chat to one of diehard Blue mate the other day and we talking about the exact thing........................i know we are crying out for ball winning midfielders.But we need a young CHB FB on our list also.Jones is getting up in years as you say Brent .

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:18 pm 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:32 pm
Posts: 456
I’d try with McGovern what we did with Jones and move him back. He hasn’t been a forward’s arsehole this year and I think it’s worth a shot. But yeah we need Macreadie or BSOS to come on or we look very thin back there. Reading reviews of the kids in the draft this year there seem to be lots of talls. If we split our pick perhaps this needs to be an area we look at.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:36 pm 
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Serge Silvagni

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 906
ferdinand wrote:
I’d try with McGovern what we did with Jones and move him back. He hasn’t been a forward’s arsehole this year and I think it’s worth a shot. But yeah we need Macreadie or BSOS to come on or we look very thin back there. Reading reviews of the kids in the draft this year there seem to be lots of talls. If we split our pick perhaps this needs to be an area we look at.


But the talls from this draft will take years to develop - unless we get access to the very top picks which we won't - so we need to work out our stopgaps. I think we are well served for KD talent (indeed all KP talent) but age and/or injury could run amok.

Jones - age
Plowman - more a third tall at best
Weitering - GOLD
Casboult -age
McGovern -injury and intensity a concern
JSOS - more a third tall, flanker or mid
BSOS - may not make it
McKay - developing well
Kemp - more a midfielder third tall type
Marchbank - injury
Macreadie - injury
Charlie Curnow - injury
O'Dwyer - more third tall type not looking likely to make it
Goddard - good 2nds player but doesn't seem more than a backup
Moore - has tools but stank in his 2 sebnior games this year hopefully an aberration.

On that review only have Weitering and McKay without big questions over them and plenty worry about Harry's conversion (me included).


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