Thank you Bondi, finally some sensible rhetoric.

We all make sense to ourselves, so that's something for all of us to hang our hat on.

Whilst I agree with all on the fresh change and it's great to be wining games and more importantly looking forward to them. I do still have concerns with DT being able to take the next step to be our head coach. And it's not because I am not a fan of his, but more I'm questioning his changes and the sustainability of them in the long term. We can all agree he relates to the players really well and has also implemented his own mini culture change but this then beckons the next big question. If we have a block of 5 or so losses what happens when the 'belief' starts to fade? According to Moshe, we already know what happens when the senior players start to lose 'belief', the tail then wags the dog.

I think the question of sustainability and what happens if...should not be Teague centric as it applies to anyone taking the head coach role at Carlton. Answer is no one knows.

Like others I noticed that the senior players were asked to make way for kids development in the coal face. No other team does that. I wonder how Ed and Murph felt tucked away in the forwardline with the possession game BB had designed: one where the ball hardly made it forward.

Therefore its easy to believe they were privately shat off with Bolton's philosophy. I would be.

Since Teague took over there has been a sense of relief, even emancipation from the stubborn process driven system of BB. Bolton didnt seem to be proactive with his player movement. Rather he'd back his young players to perform roles normally the domain of developed mature bodies at the cost of winning a game: for a life lesson. I don't think the young bodies were made to endure such physical abuse week in week out, and imo hindered their development when beaten badly or bruised and battered, but Bolts put them through that when he had senior bodies conditioned for those roles on hand to help possibly win a game, let alone provide relief for the young undeveloped bodies in the coal face.

We also know the big changes he has made, moving senior bodies from the forward line where they have pretty much been ineffective to the middle and playing more of a pressure forward of the centre game plan. The concerns I have are two fold, what effect does this have on the speed of development of the kids that are mids and what happens when one of the seniors sustains a long term injury like last year? This is why I am confused to our need to look for a small forward when we should be looking to bolster the mature body midfield depth.

I haven't heard that one before sidex. I am sure 99% of the football public, let alone Carlton supporters know our prime targets as of last year was mature midfielders to help out Cripps. This is the case this year and lets not forget we failed to get Shiel, so that gap remains. I am expecting 2 mature midfielders this trade period. These would cover any injury to current senior mids you are concerned about. No secret we are interested in Coiglio for example. We know that because he's a FA. I bet there's a few midfielders in the right age profile and in contract we are targeting too. Landing them is another story but I believe we look like a destination club since Teague changed things up.

As for targeting the small forward, that too hasn't changed since last year. Papley is just wishful thinking and Im sure SOS will pursue this hard, along with any other small forwards or mids.

The 2 positions are mutually exclusive targets, not one or the other as you seem to be positioning our recruitment targets.


As for Bolts forward line philosophies and what DT was told to do, I can't really comment unless I was privy to the conversations directly between them.

No need to know what the directives were Its very obvious there has been a marked change. You only have to listen to the media when we won games against Bris, Suns, Crows and Freo the one noticeable thing was the stay at home forward where Gibbons wasnt the lone target against a taller defender

But to me, the structure still looks the same with our key forwards leading all the way down to HB and pretty much for the most part being ineffective in the F50. And we are still targeting players like Gibbons as our full forward on either the turnover or the next kick from one of the talls.

You are only looking at what happened in the 2nd and 3rd quarter in our game against Wet Toast in isolation. This was commented on by David King, but he also mentioned this wasnt consistent with what Teague was doing in the weeks beforehand. You seem to have forgotten the winning formula. Furthermore, Teague has been hamstrung with the injury to Charlie and The Gov.

But what has changed is the pressure to lock the ball in the forward half of the ground creating repeat entires, this has primarily been done by putting Murph and Ed in the middle to lock the midfield off.

Its been the team mantra imo, and Murph and Ed pressure has been part of the whole.

This is probably more of a reflection of our scoring and winning games than anything and this has been my opinion all year with our lack of mature bodies in the middle. And is directly why Walsh and Setterfield have been developing well with more game time on the wing, which suits younger bodies. This again is the reason we still need mature mids to come to the club over a small forward.

You seem to be agreeing that it is a good idea to have the mature players in the coal face to enable kids to develop on the outside. Walsh has played plenty of time in the coal face. The kid is a freak. Setters is playing his first full year of footy after a knee reco. He wouldnt be 100% to expect more in the coal face. But I agree they are developing nicely under Teagues coaching.

With all of the above information, the biggest question still is...if we appoint DT as our head coach is this enough to bring in the A-grade midfield talent we desperately need?

Teague has put us in a position to be a destination club. Watch the tsunami of support for Teague continue to grow. He will be everyone's lips if he gets the nod. Theres a Big 4 attraction, and an attraction of the list, plus the media have jumped on the Carlton wagon which changes every perception for A Graders. We are on the rise. Don't you believe we are more attractive now than we were last year or 6 weeks ago?


So in summary, it's not that I'm not a fan of DT it's more I'm question the durability in the long run of his changes and if he is better for us than say Clarkson (if we can get him).

Clarkson has done sweet FA since he lost the onfield and off field leadership of Hodge Mitchell and Lewis. Just as David Parkin had the players to lead the team on field in 1995, Clarkson has had those 3 to make his job easy. They made Hawks a destination club and attracted Lake and of the current crop Frawley OMeara Mitchell Scully Wingard (all No 1 picks or top 10 picks), 5-6 ready made champions ... and look where they are with those big names....Clarkson can't get them into the finals even with the addition of those huge recruits to replace the 3 former leaders.

There's more to it than once successful coaches Clarkson, Malthouse and Pagan...its time for the new crop of coaches. As the saying goes be careful what you wish for.



I am also concerned in us returning to old Carlton and bring back the boys club at the expense of our kids development and sustained success after so many years of pain in this rebuild. e.g. This article...... https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-08-06/ ... eup-begins

You are reading what you want from this article. I can't see the connection with the old Carlton. What boys club? David Walls? One little fella amongst a plethora of the best of breed from other clubs. IMO it says everything contrary to the 'old Carlton'.

I hope this clears things up a little.

Sidex, imo we are travelling nicely and the best thing to happen to us, sadly, was Teague. Teague qualities are appearing in stories from Adelaide, Northern Blues... are popping up everywhere, and even from within. I say sadly because I love and respect everything Bolton and the New Carlton has done to turn us around, and that takes time.

We are a destination club. All aboard !!!!

And on the other hand I do agree that at some point the new coaches will be coming through, the question is, is Teague one of them. It would be brilliant for us if he was. But for me at the moment, I'd put more money on Sam Mitchell succeeding over Teague, just because of his level of on-field success he's achieved.

The man hoping to leave a George Harris-type legacy is thinking the same thing. It's a known unknown. There have been glimpses of match day strategy, but playing players in their proper positions and 'freeing them up' isn't something that gets you a senior coaching gig. Beating Richmond...now that gets you a senior coaching gig!

Anyhow,don't like players getting involved.Shut the faaaark up and get a kick.

Without making this a mile long response to a response of a response. I think we agree on some things and you make valid points on others. Personally I'm not into feel good stories, just results and to Teague's credit he has been delivering that. For how long is the million dollar question.

Targeting a small forward could potentially cost us a mid if we choose a Papley over a Langdon for example. We simply do not have the bargaining chips, so they are in fact, not mutually exclusive and is my point I guess.

As for Clarkson, you have to keep in mind they are in a mini rebuild at the moment and Mitchell has been out all year (it'd be like us losing Cripps all year). They would most likely be in the 8 already if he was in the team. They have also had a pretty good injury list this year also. So I see it being a bit naive stating Clarkson is only as good as Mitchell, Hodge and Lewis. Plus you have to remember when he took over the Hawks they were pretty much in the same state as us now and look at the success he had with them. To me this could be MK2 of the same play book for him.

And on the other hand I do agree that at some point the new coaches will be coming through, the question is, is Teague one of them. It would be brilliant for us if he was. But for me at the moment, I'd put more money on Sam Mitchell succeeding over Teague, just because of his level of on-field success he's achieved.

As for being a destination club, we are not there yet but defiantly heading in the right direction.

Sidefx go back and look at the team that played North in round 7
Ask yourself if that same group of players played against West coast in their current form since Teague took over would we have lost on the weekend

I would say the answer is no and this is the difference

Are you missing the Cliche Kid that much

And as for stifling young players development most if not all the Dows fishers etc would have hardly have played a game at other clubs
Bolton threw lambs to the slaughter whilst he had Murph on a wing and Ed playing half forward
Getting belted and bruised and losing each week would do more harm than good to a young developing player

cheers sidex

appreciate your position and the questioning you raise. important to put forward to make us think... as long as it doesn't become abusive of the team, club and players, like some posters because Carlton is a reformed club.

I think people are mesmerised by Clarkson...the messiah syndrome...something the old Carlton take delight in targeting. Not me.

Clarkson for coach argument has 2 sides.
The common belief is that he's a guru and the other side I like to peddle that he's not because his luck has run out when his 3 important match day leaders left for greener pastures, the AFL stopped all the privileges and the umpires whistle wasn't followed up with "free...Hawthorn."

Every team has injuries.
Hawks have attracted and topped up with heaps of high end players to their destination club / messiah to keep them up the top.
Plenty of healthy bodies coupled with Premiership players and quality kids playing week in week out this year.
Hawks during their previous 'mini rebuild' last year finished off their season with 5 straight wins to end up top 4 but out straight sets in finals.
Surely that's enough of a platform for finals for the guru coach to take the next step in 2019. He failed.

No way is Clarkson going to get off that easy with me.

He's replaced the 3 leaders who managed to take their side to premierships with big named stars of the game.
He has failed to make finals and has taken his side backwards in 2019. That's not the sort of coach I'm after.

Just compare captains he selected by the players with the captain he selected: Mitchell/ Hodge with Stanton.
He's only as good as the leaders he has and had on deck. Poor Clarkson.
When Burgoyne goes, there goes his match winner. Poor Clarkson.
Are we going to keep blaming injury and list for Clarkson's failure this year? Poor Clarkson.

@#$%&! him. He's been riding on the coat tails of the AFL's help in the naughties, and lady luck, which included having the 3 ducks line up on his list: Mitchell, Hodge and Lewis.
Without them he's a failure.

Next era of coaches please.

We definitely would have won with Shiel

And if we got Pav during the trade week we'd be unbakcable flag favourites.

cheers sidex

appreciate your position and the questioning you raise. important to put forward to make us think... as long as it doesn't become abusive of the team, club and players, like some posters because Carlton is a reformed club.

I think people are mesmerised by Clarkson...the messiah syndrome...something the old Carlton take delight in targeting. Not me.

Clarkson for coach argument has 2 sides.
The common belief is that he's a guru and the other side I like to peddle that he's not because his luck has run out when his 3 important match day leaders left for greener pastures, the AFL stopped all the privileges and the umpires whistle wasn't followed up with "free...Hawthorn."

Every team has injuries.
Hawks have attracted and topped up with heaps of high end players to their destination club / messiah to keep them up the top.
Plenty of healthy bodies coupled with Premiership players and quality kids playing week in week out this year.
Hawks during their previous 'mini rebuild' last year finished off their season with 5 straight wins to end up top 4 but out straight sets in finals.
Surely that's enough of a platform for finals for the guru coach to take the next step in 2019. He failed.

No way is Clarkson going to get off that easy with me.

He's replaced the 3 leaders who managed to take their side to premierships with big named stars of the game.
He has failed to make finals and has taken his side backwards in 2019. That's not the sort of coach I'm after.

Just compare captains he selected by the players with the captain he selected: Mitchell/ Hodge with Stanton.
He's only as good as the leaders he has and had on deck. Poor Clarkson.
When Burgoyne goes, there goes his match winner. Poor Clarkson.
Are we going to keep blaming injury and list for Clarkson's failure this year? Poor Clarkson.

@#$%&! him. He's been riding on the coat tails of the AFL's help in the naughties, and lady luck, which included having the 3 ducks line up on his list: Mitchell, Hodge and Lewis.
Without them he's a failure.

Next era of coaches please.

I see your point on Clarkson and the players but I don't necessarily agree with all of it. For example Chris Scott took Geelong backwards and now look at them (still don't think they'll win or at least hope they don't). Nathan Buckley took Collingwood backwards and aside from their phenomenal injury list this year they too are still in the hunt. Damian Hardwick could also be argued that he has taken the team backwards since their premiership but now they are looking like one of the favourites. In the case of the hawks, losing Mitchell is a pretty big thing.
Players move on and retire all the time and we too will have to face the issue with this group as we did with Fevola and co. But the fact is that 2 of the above have won premierships and the other has coached in a grand final and so far we are zip with a handful of spoons.
We have a list of potentials at the moment and if we don't appoint the right person whoever it is, we may be back to square 1 for a 3rd time.

Clearly you're set in stone on not getting him and that's cool, I'm not here to change your mind.

But for me what I like in him is the following:
1. Proven premiership success.
2. This would be an easy MK2 for him for where our team is currently at in development and where Hawthorn were at.
3. He would definitely attract A-Grade players.
4. And we could pretty much pencil in 80k in memberships as a result.

And as icing, geez it would be good to put the final blow into the Hawks having him and AR at the club. Especially if we went back to back.

Ummmmm......ok!

If we are going to speculate, then.............What if West Coast had their missing premiership players and Nic Nat? Or, what if West coast played more than a quarter and a half on the weekend? How much would've we lost by in both scenarios?

As for the rest, please refer to previous comments and if you still don't get it, you never will.