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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:57 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 1212
The alarming fact is that despite our team boasting eight All-Australian selections, the reigning Brownlow Medallist in Patrick Cripps, a Rising Star winner in Sam Walsh, and the two most recent Coleman Medallists, we have been ordinary at best, at least including our win against the Kangaroos to date.

I know thats a small "subset" of games to consider, but realistically, its over a much longer period than that.

So I think its fair to say we have a good core list of players BUT our game plan is clearly not working and I have seen no evidence of it being changed even slightly.

Thats on Voss.

Another thought :

Has he lost the players?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:06 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Fair enough….

but nevertheless…we’re a much better team when
we run and bounce…!

i guess Saad is usually good for 6-37 bounces
a game…!


kindest regards tommi

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:14 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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tommi wrote:
Fair enough….

but nevertheless…we’re a much better team when
we run and bounce…!

i guess Saad is usually good for 6-37 bounces
a game…!


kindest regards tommi

Couldn't agree more with you.
I think people are really underestimating how much of an impact there is on our structure and rebound without Saad and Doc there.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:29 pm 
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formerly BlueRob
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Posts: 3052
We are the new Fitzroy. I've said this before. There is a mentality not only with Carlton but also with all the clubs that play us. They just know they have our number most of the time. Its one of the reasons we rarely win by 60+ points. I don't know how you break that spell. All the talent in the world does not help ... neither does cycling coaches.
Melbourne and the Bulldogs managed to do it but with us .... We are just stuck!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:39 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 1212
BigBlueWave wrote:
We are the new Fitzroy. I've said this before. There is a mentality not only with Carlton but also with all the clubs that play us. They just know they have our number most of the time. Its one of the reasons we rarely win by 60+ points. I don't know how you break that spell. All the talent in the world does not help ... neither does cycling coaches.
Melbourne and the Bulldogs managed to do it but with us .... We are just stuck!


I agree, we are "stuck". Sticking to a game plan of just bombing into the forward line without any system and at either Charlie or Mckay isnt working. Especially when the small forwards have had zero impact and are typically not at the feet of those players to get the ball and create.

The old adage of doing the same thing over and over again (which isnt working) and expecting a different result is INSANITY. Voss needs to change things up with game plan and the system of getting the ball both at the source effectively as well as mixing things up with regards to forward entries and having the midfield lift their eyes to identify the few forward options which are typically free because both Harry and or Charlie will be double/tripple teamed most of the time, so there simply must be better options to go to with a forward entry!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:41 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:58 pm
Posts: 1385
Are we rattling tins?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:21 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 2554
BigBlueWave wrote:
We are the new Fitzroy. I've said this before. There is a mentality not only with Carlton but also with all the clubs that play us. They just know they have our number most of the time. Its one of the reasons we rarely win by 60+ points. I don't know how you break that spell. All the talent in the world does not help ... neither does cycling coaches.
Melbourne and the Bulldogs managed to do it but with us .... We are just stuck!


Carlton have been shit since I stopped going to games. The last I attended was the EF in 2013.

Maybe it’s me


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:25 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 1899
BigBlueWave wrote:
We are the new Fitzroy. I've said this before. There is a mentality not only with Carlton but also with all the clubs that play us. They just know they have our number most of the time. Its one of the reasons we rarely win by 60+ points. I don't know how you break that spell. All the talent in the world does not help ... neither does cycling coaches.
Melbourne and the Bulldogs managed to do it but with us .... We are just stuck!


No doubt a losing mentality can permeate a club

We have had it for over 20 years

So easy for this pattern to continue for a very long time. The cycle broke for Melbourne and Richmond recently.

I think some Carlton players would have been better players at a club like Geelong. They are simply a better club than us.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:37 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Location: afl.virtualsports.com.au
Consecutive 10 votes for J Sinclair in Carlton STK games

10 Jack Sinclair (STK)
7 Patrick Cripps (CARL)
6 Adam Cerra (CARL)
3 Bradley Hill (STK)
2 Dan Butler (STK)
1 Rowan Marshall (STK)
1 Sebastian Ross (STK)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:42 pm 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:11 pm
Posts: 448
CK95 wrote:
Why wouldn't you try Kennedy at half forward if you're looking for a position for him? At least he provides a decent medium sized marking option & can kick straight.
Came here to say the exact same thing.

Still can't work out why he was played down back. I get that he tackles hard, but I'm guessing he would have struggled having to be accountable for an opposition player, rather than just being able to hunt the footy.

Stick him in the forward line and make someone else be accountable for him.

And for the love of all that is holy, prioritise getting him the footy to deliver inside 50!

Or just let him shoot from 60m out. Couldn't do worse than our forward line did last night.

Now, as far as who to put down back. NFI. Boyd if he's healthy. But last night, I wouldn't have known what to do. I guess I probably would've gone Kemp in, Fisher out.

$10 says Fisher plays Saturday.

[/rant]

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:17 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 7899
WOW wrote:
BigBlueWave wrote:
We are the new Fitzroy. I've said this before. There is a mentality not only with Carlton but also with all the clubs that play us. They just know they have our number most of the time. Its one of the reasons we rarely win by 60+ points. I don't know how you break that spell. All the talent in the world does not help ... neither does cycling coaches.
Melbourne and the Bulldogs managed to do it but with us .... We are just stuck!


No doubt a losing mentality can permeate a club

We have had it for over 20 years

So easy for this pattern to continue for a very long time. The cycle broke for Melbourne and Richmond recently.

I think some Carlton players would have been better players at a club like Geelong. They are simply a better club than us.


You have much of that right. We don't have a great culture. A better all round club they would play better.

Hope this isn't the same pattern. From Malthouse on we have played the best in the coach's first year then it gradually gets worse until it just dribbles away to nothing and we get a new coach. Hope we can find the fortitude for a change that as the season goes this time. To me, much of that is on the player's attitude. St.Kilda have been exactly the same since Lyon's last stint too.

Despite that, if it wasn't for 15 minutes of shit in the 3rd qtr (more shit than the shit we displayed for the other 3 1/2 qtrs.) we actually may have sat on top of the ladder. Switched on properly and we win, so, essentially, yesterday was a waste. Amazing how the skills aere much better when switched on properly. You tend to take more care with what you do.


Last edited by jim on Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:17 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10115
WOW wrote:

No doubt a losing mentality can permeate a club

We have had it for over 20 years

So easy for this pattern to continue for a very long time. The cycle broke for Melbourne and Richmond recently.

I think some Carlton players would have been better players at a club like Geelong. They are simply a better club than us.


Unfortunately have said this many a times over the past 20 years and people kept dismissing it continuously. It keeps proving me right, no matter how many new players are traded in or out. LOSERS CULTURE.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:24 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:40 pm
Posts: 6047
SurreyBlue wrote:
WOW wrote:

No doubt a losing mentality can permeate a club

We have had it for over 20 years

So easy for this pattern to continue for a very long time. The cycle broke for Melbourne and Richmond recently.

I think some Carlton players would have been better players at a club like Geelong. They are simply a better club than us.


Unfortunately have said this many a times over the past 20 years and people kept dismissing it continuously. It keeps proving me right, no matter how many new players are traded in or out. LOSERS CULTURE.


So how do we rectify that Suzz ? what is your grand plan ? not saying you are wrong but what is the answer ?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:42 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 1899
Mickstar wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
WOW wrote:

No doubt a losing mentality can permeate a club

We have had it for over 20 years

So easy for this pattern to continue for a very long time. The cycle broke for Melbourne and Richmond recently.

I think some Carlton players would have been better players at a club like Geelong. They are simply a better club than us.


Unfortunately have said this many a times over the past 20 years and people kept dismissing it continuously. It keeps proving me right, no matter how many new players are traded in or out. LOSERS CULTURE.


So how do we rectify that Suzz ? what is your grand plan ? not saying you are wrong but what is the answer ?


I don’t have the answers as I am not an expert at building a winning culture but a good start may be to stop overrating our players and become more ruthless when it comes to list management.

Players like SPS, Fisher, Ed Curnow and Plowman played too many games for this club. Gifted games. Should have been traded out earlier when some had currency or phased out at the appropriate time.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:53 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3475
We have selection dishonesty

How on earth can you even start thinking about culture when the locker room is filled with (I'm guessing of course, but indulge me anyway) so much confusion about reward for effort OR consequences for poor form

imagine you're a close mate of Dow or Kemp or to a lesser extent, Carroll and you see them either doing well in the 2s or maybe hoping they are given a "coaches call" opportunity in the firsts because player X has played poorly for weeks in the seniors or player Y is injured...and it just doesn't happen

Then you see Honey, Motlop, Durdin, Ed, LOB, Fisher, Hewett and even Jack play week after week regardless of their output...and Plowman for 1 week

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:42 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10115
Mickstar wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
WOW wrote:

No doubt a losing mentality can permeate a club

We have had it for over 20 years

So easy for this pattern to continue for a very long time. The cycle broke for Melbourne and Richmond recently.

I think some Carlton players would have been better players at a club like Geelong. They are simply a better club than us.


Unfortunately have said this many a times over the past 20 years and people kept dismissing it continuously. It keeps proving me right, no matter how many new players are traded in or out. LOSERS CULTURE.


So how do we rectify that Suzz ? what is your grand plan ? not saying you are wrong but what is the answer ?


Not sure you want to read the below RANT, as I’m still filthy - but here you go:

This is set down from the Board/CEO to the 44th player.
The CEO has everyone on notice. Failure won’t be tolerate. Hard questions asked at every opportunity. Failure is multiple or bad losses and not playing finals at years end. Anything less and there are consequences. That’s it’s not just the football department.

The football director and coach ensure that there are no honourable losses. Losses aren’t tolerated and team selection is the key. Players not performing, especially after a loss, pay the price.
(I used to be filthy when my favourites such as Ken Sheldon or Alex Marcou as an example where dropped - but now in I understand - Jezza was a hard arse pr1ck but he got results) This is something we have dearly missed and I truly felt Voss was to be such a pr1ck. Hopefully I’m still right.

Leaders demand success and lead by ensuring players understand the requirements, ie. team first ethos and 1% are the minimum at every contest. Game plan setup and processes are followed.
Players not doing team things - all team things - just don’t get selected.
Players should go back and show they understand what is required. They also don’t come back in, unless there is another spot open. Make them work for their place back. No exceptions from leaders down. No one covers someone else’s deficiencies by being made to cover other players weaknesses. Everyone is the same. If I were Voss, I’d be making a huge statement this week - Weitering. Terrible look and application!!!

Importantly, coaches and leaders don’t just lead by label but ‘make the hard calls’ on mates as needed.
No one is above the team and individual selfishness (chasing awards and accolades) aren’t part of the team. This bulldust of next man up is just a cop out. Players can play multiple positions, ie, midfielders can rest forward, etc. Every player must earn their position and every player that plays well in the VFL must be rewarded - of course, once opportunity arises, it’s on that player to keep his spot.
That’s how you set the standards. As an example, Cincotta (1st game) and Hollands (6th game) are 2 kids showing that you don’t need to be an experienced player to play your role and do the team things.

Talk is just hot air and cheap. Standards are to be followed through and action to be taken on at EVERY instance. Actions speak louder than words and over the last 20+ years not once have we seen any of this from our coaches or leaders!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:55 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 1212
SurreyBlue wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
WOW wrote:

No doubt a losing mentality can permeate a club

We have had it for over 20 years

So easy for this pattern to continue for a very long time. The cycle broke for Melbourne and Richmond recently.

I think some Carlton players would have been better players at a club like Geelong. They are simply a better club than us.


Unfortunately have said this many a times over the past 20 years and people kept dismissing it continuously. It keeps proving me right, no matter how many new players are traded in or out. LOSERS CULTURE.


So how do we rectify that Suzz ? what is your grand plan ? not saying you are wrong but what is the answer ?


Not sure you want to read the below RANT, as I’m still filthy - but here you go:

This is set down from the Board/CEO to the 44th player.
The CEO has everyone on notice. Failure won’t be tolerate. Hard questions asked at every opportunity. Failure is multiple or bad losses and not playing finals at years end. Anything less and there are consequences. That’s it’s not just the football department.

The football director and coach ensure that there are no honourable losses. Losses aren’t tolerated and team selection is the key. Players not performing, especially after a loss, pay the price.
(I used to be filthy when my favourites such as Ken Sheldon or Alex Marcou as an example where dropped - but now in I understand - Jezza was a hard arse pr1ck but he got results) This is something we have dearly missed and I truly felt Voss was to be such a pr1ck. Hopefully I’m still right.

Leaders demand success and lead by ensuring players understand the requirements, ie. team first ethos and 1% are the minimum at every contest. Game plan setup and processes are followed.
Players not doing team things - all team things - just don’t get selected.
Players should go back and show they understand what is required. They also don’t come back in, unless there is another spot open. Make them work for their place back. No exceptions from leaders down. No one covers someone else’s deficiencies by being made to cover other players weaknesses. Everyone is the same. If I were Voss, I’d be making a huge statement this week - Weitering. Terrible look and application!!!

Importantly, coaches and leaders don’t just lead by label but ‘make the hard calls’ on mates as needed.
No one is above the team and individual selfishness (chasing awards and accolades) aren’t part of the team. This bulldust of next man up is just a cop out. Players can play multiple positions, ie, midfielders can rest forward, etc. Every player must earn their position and every player that plays well in the VFL must be rewarded - of course, once opportunity arises, it’s on that player to keep his spot.
That’s how you set the standards. As an example, Cincotta (1st game) and Hollands (6th game) are 2 kids showing that you don’t need to be an experienced player to play your role and do the team things.

Talk is just hot air and cheap. Standards are to be followed through and action to be taken on at EVERY instance. Actions speak louder than words and over the last 20+ years not once have we seen any of this from our coaches or leaders!!!


Surrey you have totally nailed it!

Great post :clap:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:47 am 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3475
Effes wrote:
Consecutive 10 votes for J Sinclair in Carlton STK games

10 Jack Sinclair (STK)

7 Patrick Cripps (CARL)
6 Adam Cerra (CARL)
3 Bradley Hill (STK)
2 Dan Butler (STK)
1 Rowan Marshall (STK)
1 Sebastian Ross (STK)


I'm guessing Voss isn't familiar with some of Einstein's work

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:00 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3475
SurreyBlue wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
WOW wrote:

No doubt a losing mentality can permeate a club

We have had it for over 20 years

So easy for this pattern to continue for a very long time. The cycle broke for Melbourne and Richmond recently.

I think some Carlton players would have been better players at a club like Geelong. They are simply a better club than us.


Unfortunately have said this many a times over the past 20 years and people kept dismissing it continuously. It keeps proving me right, no matter how many new players are traded in or out. LOSERS CULTURE.


So how do we rectify that Suzz ? what is your grand plan ? not saying you are wrong but what is the answer ?


Not sure you want to read the below RANT, as I’m still filthy - but here you go:

This is set down from the Board/CEO to the 44th player.
The CEO has everyone on notice. Failure won’t be tolerate. Hard questions asked at every opportunity. Failure is multiple or bad losses and not playing finals at years end. Anything less and there are consequences. That’s it’s not just the football department.

The football director and coach ensure that there are no honourable losses. Losses aren’t tolerated and team selection is the key. Players not performing, especially after a loss, pay the price.
(I used to be filthy when my favourites such as Ken Sheldon or Alex Marcou as an example where dropped - but now in I understand - Jezza was a hard arse pr1ck but he got results) This is something we have dearly missed and I truly felt Voss was to be such a pr1ck. Hopefully I’m still right.

Leaders demand success and lead by ensuring players understand the requirements, ie. team first ethos and 1% are the minimum at every contest. Game plan setup and processes are followed.
Players not doing team things - all team things - just don’t get selected.
Players should go back and show they understand what is required. They also don’t come back in, unless there is another spot open. Make them work for their place back. No exceptions from leaders down. No one covers someone else’s deficiencies by being made to cover other players weaknesses. Everyone is the same. If I were Voss, I’d be making a huge statement this week - Weitering. Terrible look and application!!!

Importantly, coaches and leaders don’t just lead by label but ‘make the hard calls’ on mates as needed.
No one is above the team and individual selfishness (chasing awards and accolades) aren’t part of the team. This bulldust of next man up is just a cop out. Players can play multiple positions, ie, midfielders can rest forward, etc. Every player must earn their position and every player that plays well in the VFL must be rewarded - of course, once opportunity arises, it’s on that player to keep his spot.
That’s how you set the standards. As an example, Cincotta (1st game) and Hollands (6th game) are 2 kids showing that you don’t need to be an experienced player to play your role and do the team things.

Talk is just hot air and cheap. Standards are to be followed through and action to be taken on at EVERY instance. Actions speak louder than words and over the last 20+ years not once have we seen any of this from our coaches or leaders!!!


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:52 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:10 am
Posts: 1495
I am not concerned about us as a club. We are doing well especially off ground

Issue for me at the moment is our list. It is thin and needs rectifying. Things can change quickly


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