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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Hornet wrote:
CK95 wrote:
Carlton $6
C'wood $1.12

Need a boxing coach to tear up a newspaper in front of the boys before the game...

Thats pretty good odds for the Pies.... :grin:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:33 pm 
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John Nicholls

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Craig_Bradley wrote:
I don't know why people are citing Hendo's performances on Riewoldt and Hall as particularly positive. Both opponents have kicked 4 goals (one in a game that we won by 103 pts) after having battled for the past couple of months. His best form was vs Kennedy in the second half vs the Eagles.

In sum, I'd agree that Hendo hasn't been terrible down back, but I wouldn't agree with a statement that he's been particularly good either.

Whichever end he plays at, the issue at the moment is pace - perfectly demonstrated by the first goal Hall kicked when he got beaten in the race back to the ball in the open 50. I fear that this will be even more evident vs the Pies - Cloke will destroy him for pace. As a few have said re Hall, whoever plays on Cloke, 4-5 goals is probably break even.

When Thornton and Bower are just as much, if not more, suited to defence - surely the question is 'who out of those three is most likely to perform up front?'

The answer for me is Henderson and, when sitting fourth on the ladder, clinging on for dear life, we don't prioritise one player's development over team structure.

As an aside, I'm glad Ratts flagged upheaval in the forward structure cos a conventional structure with who we have (don't have) available will get slaughtered. Mosquito fleet with Garlett the focal point, isolated out of the goalsquare is how I would line up. The Pies only defender who can match him for pace is Davis and he doesn't have the defensive skill to compete on the last line.


Decent points CB but if you saying Henda hasnt been that successful as a back what has he shown as a forward this year? Thornton has shown more in that position.

I reckon jamo would not have stopped many of the 8 kicked on Henda in the last two weeks. Clokes improvement comes on the back of contested marks. Not sure T bird or Bower could do as good a job as Henda in that area.

Also your comment on Henda playing back disrupting team balance that is disputable. If he get his confidence up in that position and provides cover for the loss of AA jamo then he will be helping team structure as we fight for wins to secure a finals berth.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:13 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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club29 wrote:
Effes wrote:
Walker doesn't split packs open like Dawes does or take as many contested marks.

Walker has a role to play but he would be able to do it better with Henderson and Waite in the forward line along with Eddie and Garlett.

How would Walker go against Ben Reid or Tarrant...he needs to be able to play on a lesser defender. Maybe that's why he has struggled against top 8 teams...their settled defences haven't had to match up often on Henderson-Waite-Walker.

F: Betts Waite Walker
HF: Murphy (any rotating mid) Henderson Garlett

Deep into September we need two genuine tall forwards to be successful....Waite and Henderson. Kreuzer/Warnock/Hampson are pinch hitters forward for the time being.


I disagree with your thoughts on Walker. Splits pack with his leap. Takes contested marks. He is the second tall for me. The fact that he can do all Dawes stuff and still go onball at times is a huge advantage to the way we are designed to play.

Your linup looks good but it doesnt take into account the resting ruck (L.Brown type).


The stats suggest Dawes takes more contested marks than Walker. Walker is mainly a leading forward...he rarely splits packs. Dawes is a JK/Spalding type...there is no comparison there to Walker. Completely different build and playing style.

Not sure why the extra tall can't still enforce a press.

West Coast have one of the best forward press' in the competition and play two rucks (Cox and NicNat), Darling, Lynch and Kennedy. It works at Subiaco AND Etihad. So really I can't see how we couldn't do the same with Kreuzer/Warnock and Waite/Henderson.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:43 pm 
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John Nicholls

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Effes wrote:
club29 wrote:
Effes wrote:
Walker doesn't split packs open like Dawes does or take as many contested marks.

Walker has a role to play but he would be able to do it better with Henderson and Waite in the forward line along with Eddie and Garlett.

How would Walker go against Ben Reid or Tarrant...he needs to be able to play on a lesser defender. Maybe that's why he has struggled against top 8 teams...their settled defences haven't had to match up often on Henderson-Waite-Walker.

F: Betts Waite Walker
HF: Murphy (any rotating mid) Henderson Garlett

Deep into September we need two genuine tall forwards to be successful....Waite and Henderson. Kreuzer/Warnock/Hampson are pinch hitters forward for the time being.


I disagree with your thoughts on Walker. Splits pack with his leap. Takes contested marks. He is the second tall for me. The fact that he can do all Dawes stuff and still go onball at times is a huge advantage to the way we are designed to play.

Your linup looks good but it doesnt take into account the resting ruck (L.Brown type).


The stats suggest Dawes takes more contested marks than Walker. Walker is mainly a leading forward...he rarely splits packs. Dawes is a JK/Spalding type...there is no comparison there to Walker. Completely different build and playing style.

Not sure why the extra tall can't still enforce a press.

West Coast have one of the best forward press' in the competition and play two rucks (Cox and NicNat), Darling, Lynch and Kennedy. It works at Subiaco AND Etihad. So really I can't see how we couldn't do the same with Kreuzer/Warnock and Waite/Henderson.


Good points. I am not saying Walker is the same player as Dawes but he performs the same role and has his own slant on it. More goals, more marks, more inside fifty tackles, can go on ball and i believe he splits packs with his big leaps. Dawes has not been that good this season. They didnt miss him last week.

Yes WC are outside the norm with the amount of talls they play. Nic nat is freaky in his pressure acts and that helps. Not sure they would beat us at our best with all our blokes in. Would be a good game. At the moment they are fit and flying.

We could probably do it with Kreuzer/Warnock and Waite/Henderson but i know we can do it with Kreuzer/Warnock and Waite/Walker.
Walker is our leading goal kicker.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:44 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Not looking forward to this week. I hope it isn't like the second Coll game last year :yikes:

Not expecting to win but I sure hope the boys have a red hot crack and show that we're not quite done with yet.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:52 pm 
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Robert Walls

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blues to surprise with a certain win! :thanks:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:38 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Kane Lucas should be in contention for a recall this week. He was handy for the Bullants on Saturday.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Is Rohan Kerr eligible?

I reckon he is a shot as a wildcard forward

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Why do people continue to just talk about Hendo moving forward or back and then playing a small forward line. Pies will slaughter us if we play small forwards and bomb it in long. It doesn't work; if you're going to Pagan-it then you have to have a big bloke for the little blokes to crumb. Play Henderson as the anchorman in the goal square with Walker as the hit up target and then the small blokes. Another option is to play Yarran forward and tag O'Brien.

It has to be play on at all costs - 1970 revisited. Run and handball until you get space in the F50 for a lead and mark.

Austin to play CHB with Thornton at FB. Aussie is the only guy with the pace to match Cloke on the lead and also able to hold him out at contests. Bower will get rag-dolled.

I can't believe how short-sighted people are on here sometimes, we cry out for a key defender and there's a perfectly decent one showing good form in the Magoos.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:06 pm 
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Bruce Comben

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club29 wrote:
Craig_Bradley wrote:
I don't know why people are citing Hendo's performances on Riewoldt and Hall as particularly positive. Both opponents have kicked 4 goals (one in a game that we won by 103 pts) after having battled for the past couple of months. His best form was vs Kennedy in the second half vs the Eagles.

In sum, I'd agree that Hendo hasn't been terrible down back, but I wouldn't agree with a statement that he's been particularly good either.

Whichever end he plays at, the issue at the moment is pace - perfectly demonstrated by the first goal Hall kicked when he got beaten in the race back to the ball in the open 50. I fear that this will be even more evident vs the Pies - Cloke will destroy him for pace. As a few have said re Hall, whoever plays on Cloke, 4-5 goals is probably break even.

When Thornton and Bower are just as much, if not more, suited to defence - surely the question is 'who out of those three is most likely to perform up front?'

The answer for me is Henderson and, when sitting fourth on the ladder, clinging on for dear life, we don't prioritise one player's development over team structure.



Decent points CB but if you saying Henda hasnt been that successful as a back what has he shown as a forward this year? Thornton has shown more in that position.

I reckon jamo would not have stopped many of the 8 kicked on Henda in the last two weeks. Clokes improvement comes on the back of contested marks. Not sure T bird or Bower could do as good a job as Henda in that area.

Also your comment on Henda playing back disrupting team balance that is disputable. If he get his confidence up in that position and provides cover for the loss of AA jamo then he will be helping team structure as we fight for wins to secure a finals berth.


Happy to concede that Hendo has shown as much up forward as he has down back, and maybe even a bit less - although I think his form up forward is still tainted in all our minds by the Essendon* game when he just shouldn't have been picked. Since that, good on return vs Brisbane, bad vs Sydney and tough to say vs WCE cos the ball wasn't sighted forward until he moved back.

In terms of Jamo and performance, I gave that some thought, from what I can remember of Sunday's game - I don't think Jamo loses the race back to the goal (+1) and I remember Hendo having a good look (and missing) at a spoil in the 3rd quarter when Hall marked on the lead (+1). That's w/o looking back over the tape at the others. There's also the loss of run and contested marks that Jamo was providing. I'm not expecting that of Hendo at this stage, but I don't accept Hendo's form being dressed up as anything more than serviceable. It underlines how massive Jamo's loss is cos our next best is so far off his quality.

Re balance, I see where you're coming from but I just don't think we can afford to have him in the back half. I have confidence that he'll be a good player wherever he plays in the years to come. Ultimately, with Waite, O'Hailpin and Hampson fit at the end of the year (fingers crossed), we might settle him down back. But for Saturday, I think we can cover the lack of Hendo (Bower, Thornton, Austin) down back better than we can the total absence of a tall, mobile target up forward. I agree that Thornton isn't totally clueless but I think Hendo is still our preferred forward option - by all means, if Hendo gives nothing up forward in the first half, switch it around. But I was disappointed in the stubbornness from the box in keeping him on Hall vs the Dogs. I hope they reconsider for this week.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:16 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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CarltonClem wrote:
Why do people continue to just talk about Hendo moving forward or back and then playing a small forward line. Pies will slaughter us if we play small forwards and bomb it in long. It doesn't work; if you're going to Pagan-it then you have to have a big bloke for the little blokes to crumb. Play Henderson as the anchorman in the goal square with Walker as the hit up target and then the small blokes. Another option is to play Yarran forward and tag O'Brien.

It has to be play on at all costs - 1970 revisited. Run and handball until you get space in the F50 for a lead and mark.

Austin to play CHB with Thornton at FB. Aussie is the only guy with the pace to match Cloke on the lead and also able to hold him out at contests. Bower will get rag-dolled.

I can't believe how short-sighted people are on here sometimes, we cry out for a key defender and there's a perfectly decent one showing good form in the Magoos.


Sorry Clem but I don't agree.

My concern with Austin is just how easily he was pushed around against the Eagles. As for run and handball, the issue is "the press" doesn't let the ball carrier much time and the likely receiver probably less. Tha's why so many sides have to scramble out of defence only to see the ball come back straight away.

This game we just need to show the same vigour and effort as was shown against the Swans and Saints earlier this year. We didn't play particularly well but refused to give up and we ground out a win.

ATM I think we are capable of playing much better footy than we did earlier in the year when we were winning, sometimes ugly, but still winning. The WCE and Bulldogs results were more a result of poor effort than anything else.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:19 pm 
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Ken Hands
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Craig_Bradley wrote:
Happy to concede that Hendo has shown as much up forward as he has down back, and maybe even a bit less - although I think his form up forward is still tainted in all our minds by the Essendon* game when he just shouldn't have been picked. Since that, good on return vs Brisbane, bad vs Sydney and tough to say vs WCE cos the ball wasn't sighted forward until he moved back.

In terms of Jamo and performance, I gave that some thought, from what I can remember of Sunday's game - I don't think Jamo loses the race back to the goal (+1) and I remember Hendo having a good look (and missing) at a spoil in the 3rd quarter when Hall marked on the lead (+1). That's w/o looking back over the tape at the others. There's also the loss of run and contested marks that Jamo was providing. I'm not expecting that of Hendo at this stage, but I don't accept Hendo's form being dressed up as anything more than serviceable. It underlines how massive Jamo's loss is cos our next best is so far off his quality.

Re balance, I see where you're coming from but I just don't think we can afford to have him in the back half. I have confidence that he'll be a good player wherever he plays in the years to come. Ultimately, with Waite, O'Hailpin and Hampson fit at the end of the year (fingers crossed), we might settle him down back. But for Saturday, I think we can cover the lack of Hendo (Bower, Thornton, Austin) down back better than we can the total absence of a tall, mobile target up forward. I agree that Thornton isn't totally clueless but I think Hendo is still our preferred forward option - by all means, if Hendo gives nothing up forward in the first half, switch it around. But I was disappointed in the stubbornness from the box in keeping him on Hall vs the Dogs. I hope they reconsider for this week.


I think Barry Halls last goal was with T-Bird playing on him, so Hendo really only had 3 kicked on him. I just don't want to see T-Bird and Bower playing in attack against Collingwood. Good on the coaching staff for trying something different but their gamble didn't pay off. Interesting to see which way MC go with Hendo this week


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:21 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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CarltonClem wrote:
Why do people continue to just talk about Hendo moving forward or back and then playing a small forward line. Pies will slaughter us if we play small forwards and bomb it in long. It doesn't work; if you're going to Pagan-it then you have to have a big bloke for the little blokes to crumb. Play Henderson as the anchorman in the goal square with Walker as the hit up target and then the small blokes. Another option is to play Yarran forward and tag O'Brien.

It has to be play on at all costs - 1970 revisited. Run and handball until you get space in the F50 for a lead and mark.

Austin to play CHB with Thornton at FB. Aussie is the only guy with the pace to match Cloke on the lead and also able to hold him out at contests. Bower will get rag-dolled.

I can't believe how short-sighted people are on here sometimes, we cry out for a key defender and there's a perfectly decent one showing good form in the Magoos.



I aggre.......... that "Big Bloke" is Kreuzer. Let him rest at full forward and palm it down to the little guys.

Austin has shown nothing. He's "OK" at VFL Level - but sadly, that's all he'll ever be (just my opinon).

Hendo ditto has shown little if anything up forward this year - which could be due to pre-season injuires, or it could mean that he's still developing. Either way, he is not our answer this weekend.

Basically.................. We have NO talls to play forward this weekend bar Kreuzer. Setanta is underdone, Waite is obviously injured, Ditto Hampson,..............Hence why I reckon we go in small along with Kreuzer..............Use him as the decoy and let him just palm it down and keep it inside our 50 at all costs.

It worked well with Setanta's little helpers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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grrofunger wrote:
Is Rohan Kerr eligible?

I reckon he is a shot as a wildcard forward

Kerr is a Carlton senior player, not a rookie, so he is eligible.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:30 am 
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Rod Ashman

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Craig_Bradley wrote:
I don't know why people are citing Hendo's performances on Riewoldt and Hall as particularly positive. Both opponents have kicked 4 goals (one in a game that we won by 103 pts) after having battled for the past couple of months. His best form was vs Kennedy in the second half vs the Eagles.

In sum, I'd agree that Hendo hasn't been terrible down back, but I wouldn't agree with a statement that he's been particularly good either.



Agree CB, Hendo has been serviceable, that's about it. Jack R has struggled for weeks now, but gets 4 on Hendo. Hurley kept him to one last week. Bazza had his best game in many week as well last week.

BUT, still reckon he's our best option for Cloke this week. Bower has beaten him before, but that was when he was playing higher up the field, now Clokey is being plonked in the square to out muscle the likes of Rivers, Bower, T-Bird etc and it's a formula I don't think Mick will change any time soon.

I'd bring in Carlos to replace Waite for CHF/FF, just reckon his competing will be vital in locking the ball in. He played very well v Swans @ SCG after many weeks off the scene, I'll back him to do it again. If Hendo fails on Cloke, swap him for Carlos. Icke seemed to hint the other day that he is very much in contention for this week.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:49 am 
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Craig Bradley

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Bower to Cloke
Has a good record on power forwards. Nobody can out body Cloke but Bower is more likely to run off his opponent than Hendo or Thornton
Bring in Austin 5th year with Dawes out provides size down back. keep him in the ones for a few weeks unless he is shit. otherwise might as well put the que in the rack now
Play Thornton upforward . He aint the future but at least he provides some size in the forward line
Hendo in attack he is the only guy that can take a contested mark in the forward 50

the game will be won in the middle as all games are but geez we were so undersized when Waite went off. The issue must be addressed by the MC.
Hope Warnock's second efforts are better against Jolly otherwise we are [REDACTED]


Last edited by keogh on Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:53 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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keogh wrote:
Bower to Cloke
Has a good record on poer forwards. Nobody can out body Cloke but Bower is more likely to run off his opponent than Hendo or Thornton
Bring in Austin 5th year with dawes out provides size down back
Play Thornton upforward > he aint the future but atleast he provides some size in the forward line
hendo in attack he is the only guy that can take a contested mark in the forward 50

the game will be won in the middle as all games are but geez we were so undersized when Waite went off. The issue must be addressed by the MC.


Sorry, but that's the one thing he can't do at the moment.

In time, with more strength, fitness and experience, he'll perform as a KPF, but not now.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:56 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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I love Setanta and the aggression he brings - but to bringing him into a game like this underdone without him playing last week is fraught with danger.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:07 am 
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Craig Bradley

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Rexy wrote:
keogh wrote:
Bower to Cloke
Has a good record on poer forwards. Nobody can out body Cloke but Bower is more likely to run off his opponent than Hendo or Thornton
Bring in Austin 5th year with dawes out provides size down back
Play Thornton upforward > he aint the future but atleast he provides some size in the forward line
hendo in attack he is the only guy that can take a contested mark in the forward 50

the game will be won in the middle as all games are but geez we were so undersized when Waite went off. The issue must be addressed by the MC.


Sorry, but that's the one thing he can't do at the moment.

In time, with more strength, fitness and experience, he'll perform as a KPF, but not now.



How do we know unless he plays there now.
he is the only option we have and its essential you have a key marking forward.
last weeks secod half proved that
Austin and Bower are defenders only
Body on body Thornton is useless

Kreuzer up forward may not be an option if Warnock continues to play like last week.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:13 am 
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John Nicholls

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keogh wrote:
Bower to Cloke
Has a good record on power forwards. Nobody can out body Cloke but Bower is more likely to run off his opponent than Hendo or Thornton
Bring in Austin 5th year with Dawes out provides size down back. keep him in the ones for a few weeks unless he is shit. otherwise might as well put the que in the rack now
Play Thornton upforward . He aint the future but at least he provides some size in the forward line
Hendo in attack he is the only guy that can take a contested mark in the forward 50

the game will be won in the middle as all games are but geez we were so undersized when Waite went off. The issue must be addressed by the MC.
Hope Warnock's second efforts are better against Jolly otherwise we are !@#$%&


Some good thoughts keogh but why bring in Austin if Dawes is out. We should use that as an opportunity to play another running player.

Duigan Bower/Henda Laidler
Gibbs Bower/THornton Yaz
SImpson Judd Scotland
Robo Henda/Thornton Yarran
Walker Kruezer Betts

Warnock Curnow Murphy

INT:- Ellard Armfield/houla Touhy Sub:- Russ

For me Gibbs has to be HBF. He is an OK onballer, good forward but close to AA HBF. Need our good kickers and decision makers in the back half. Kicking out of the press is the hardest kick in footy and we need him there. When we have them in our press he will be the one cutting off their outlets and delivering inside our fifty. Sounds ideal to me.
He may be used on Pendlebury again. Not entirely against it this week but as the season unfolds HBF should be his position IMO.


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