Firstly
Sorry about the missspelling nightmare I started forgetting the "U" in Louise Sauvage....I'm a lot better at designing devices for the paralympics than typing unfortunately

BACK to the topic...DB...I think Denis has done this a few times...that is what you said...allow it to happen.
Interestingly there many examples (not just Wiz cup) where he's moved players back, bottle it up etc.....

On the weekend he seemed to (my guess) pick that the players weren't playing to insstruction so he thought "well I'm not moving guys around to make up for waht we should be doing anyway"

Couldn't understand why after 4 goals in the first we weren't flooding back etc..did it in the Essendon* game and the Wiz cup....

so is it a Paganism..."do what I ask and if you're beiong beaten I'll support you....don't do what I ask and you're on your own !" ?

It's a risky strategy if this is the case.



Ok...I have to do some work now!

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“Every single element of the Club has to be the best in the league, meticulously and methodically, and only by doing this will we be elite and challenge for number 17.”
Greg Lee

What the...Molsey.... Are you saying here that it is such an impossibility for our coach to be outcoached that anyone suggesting such a thing knows nothing about footy?

At the end of the day we don't have the cattle and we'll get beaten by more talented sides going as hard as us and if we don't have the motivation then we'll get done by more motivated sides of comparable talent. I think the coach bears responsibility if the players won't do what he says or wants. That's part of the skill of a coach to motivate players to do what he requires. But some weeks it doesn't happen.

I would think DP would take responsibility if the players don't play to their potential, and his response would be to give people some chance to atone then drop or later delist. We've got a long way to go, but if bad performance is only the responsibility of the players then Britts or perhaps Ian Thorogood would still be coach. When we get flogged everybody should be under the microscope. I think DP is great, but not beyond scrutiny

Has anyone actually watched any of the Richmond games this season? Does anyone actually think they are THAT good? If you do, you enjoy a different brand of footy than I do! We went in there knowing they had tall timber and would struggle manning up on them. Simmonds and Knobel aint that good and are crap kicks for goal. Play them wide. Richo was on fire so TBird just had to hold him, and for the most part he did. Man up on Coggers so he cant get easy possessions, if he gets it he will deliver it well. Make sure Krackour and Brown are manned up on and dont get easy cheap goals.

Bloody hell it aint rocket science! We played shit on the day, we didn't play accountable footy, we dropped our heads and frankly should have stayed home if we are going to dish out rubbish like that on a footy field. I dont care how good Scotland, Stevens and Kouta have played in previous weeks, they have to do it every week and bloody lead from the front!

No point picking our list apart at this stage, especially on that game. We should have beaten Richmond.

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I stole Sheedy's Gatorade...

Gerry, just asking the question and comparing a life coach to a hack writer like me. Did Malthouse get outcoached by Connolly - no, he just has a bunch of hack players!

I felt as though Pagan refused to flood, use the tactic that he had done before to stop the rushes, as if he wsa trying to prove a point to a) the players - follow my way or get burned or b) the hierarchy - we aint good enough 1 on 1 yet so we have to play ugly to win. But was he outcoached? To me, our Plan A was nullified by Knobel, the best nullifying ruckman in the comp, beating French, and Coughlan killing Kouta out of the middle. Without those 2 linchpins winning the ball out clear, did we have a chance? Do we have a backup plan - nothing that seems to work, our wins are based on Kouta/French to a very large extent.

I guess I get confused by massive defeats and am not sure where the blame lies!

Your're right Chief - but I dream of the day - when we can go into a game and play it on our terms - and where the opposition has to worry about "manning" us up - haven't seen anything like that since 2001.

Ah those Premiership 3rd Quarters circa 1981.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Obviously having a weaker list puts a team at a disadvantage.
However I have seen some pretty average teams have a dip, play to orders and pressure superior teams into making mistakes.
Each and every player is accountable, they are given a role and they should at the very least least look like they are trying to fulfil their obligation to the team and Coach.
The old Footscray teams of a few years back were not blessed with an abundance of talent, but they would fight tooth and nail and as a result bring teams to their level. It wasn't pretty, but I admired their tenacity and ferociousness. Two words that unfortunately don't spring to mind when talking about our team.
Regards Pedro.

If he was around the mark, I would have no hestitation drafting him with a later pick - or rookie listing him for a couple years - looks to have plenty of character and to be a decent footy player to boot

Denis will never flood when he feels the team isnt doing whatever it takes to win. He never has.
He isnt interested in slowing the flow.. one day he will but not yet.
Like he has played 31 players.. 32 on Friday in 8 weeks he is interested in learning who can play and who can follow orders.
you wont see any of that unless you have them playing man on man...
Why do the weak thing and go into a flood against Richmond?
What do you leanr?
Just going to minimise a thrashing?
Whats the point?
So you can flood again next week with the same players doing the same wrong things.

Its about the process people...if you refuse to do what youve been asked there will be consequences. There are already a couple of players in Lindsay Smithland and another joined the list.. a couple of others are close.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

hang on two things again. if denis didn't want to fine, still means he was outchoached but that he didn;t care - he was teacvhing somethign else.

Secondly if we are never going to try and stop the flow when things go the other way (not a permanent mindset to flkow, but moving piec es like in a game of chess) we are in deep deep shit!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Grapes!

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

I have just read the last page on this thread and agree with most of the sentiment, but I have a few questions...

1. If Denis is teaching his players the value of following orders why is he letting them prepare for the game this coming week?

2. If Footscray was a team a number of years back that were good at playing accountable footy and taking it up to higher ranked teams then what is Libba doing at the club?

As I see it the cause of the loss on the weekend our midfield of French, Kouta, Campo and Stevens getting soundly beaten. They didn't get the ball first, didn't deliver the ball well and didn't apply defensive pressure when it was required. That provided extra pressure around the ground that our younger/more inexperienced players were unable to handle. So in the end they were all soundly beaten. The Tigers took the foot off the accelerator in the second half because they were nice. I know this is the bleeding obvious for some, but others need it reinforced.

We need to throw alot of money at Scarlett and entice him at the club.

?
Thornton was one of our most effective players.....Richo should've had 12 (goals...and a ton of marks!)

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“Every single element of the Club has to be the best in the league, meticulously and methodically, and only by doing this will we be elite and challenge for number 17.”
Greg Lee

Can't we have both Bill?

You don't think we need another key defender?

cany imagine scarlett would walk - he is a f/s selection

Sorry GWS, in relation to the topic...ie Pagan outcoached..I thought you meant we got killed in (scarlett's) FB position!

Not going to complain about more KP defender at this stage

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“Every single element of the Club has to be the best in the league, meticulously and methodically, and only by doing this will we be elite and challenge for number 17.”
Greg Lee

If Denis floods to stop the flow how does he know who to make a call on ?
I think we should have kept Wayne Brittain as coach....
Would that make everyone feel better??
Short posession stop the flow type style...

Denis isnt going to sacrifice learning about his players by making it easier for them.
at the end of the day we laid few tackles.. didnt man up.. didnt shephers.. didnt block.. didnt run hard...

WTF is Denis supposed to do by making changes on a saturday???
All the basics are gone.. so you think Denis should be this master puppeteer swapping a couple of players and turning the game around???

Lazy football means theyre not doing what theyre supposed to do..and throwing T Bird at FF and Setanta in the ruck wouldnt make a difference...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

win this week - only 1/2 a game out of the 8

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*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

False dawns.. i hate being sucked in.
even if we turned this season around wed be doing a Collingwood and over achieving before the inevitable house of cards comes crashing down.
Id love to rebuild properly without the rush to become competitive when were really not and not likely to be.
Plus id hate to be just competitive any no scope for anything more..

Id like to think were building towards another premiership.. and sustained success.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I agree Synbad hence the "rolly eyes"

All i want for the rest of the season is guts, determination and the likes of simpson,bentick,blackwell,russell etc all get extended game time.

I wanna see fierceness at the contest and some pride for the jumper

I would be happy to see that and not win another game for the year

I can handle all the crap from people now about us being shit - but they wont be laughing in two years time

oh

i also want to see some major action come draft and trade time

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*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.