Your points are noted, but that doesn't change the fact that Cotchin will most likely end up being the better of the 2. Fact is fact regardless of intent. Things may change but I doubt it.

Wow, what a fluff up that was. The ramifications are still being felt by yellow and black.

..it's not fact at all, far too early to say cotchin will be the better player.. ..both have had injuries, though an ACL to a player, especially a tall, is by far the more significant injury.. ..couple that with mids maturing faster as players than talls, and the jury is still out..

..question, looking at players near the end of their careers, would you take a topline mid [plenty to choose from], over a topline ruck such as Cox..?..

..and team balance definitely comes into the drafting equation..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

So are we now comparing Kreuzer with Cox? Lets get serious.

I agree with comments above that at the time of the pick it was the right pick. Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, there is no way known I would have made that pick.

Without Kreuzer, it's entirely possible that Jacobs wouldn't have seen the logjam and may have been persuaded to stay. So we might well have had a ruck division of Jacobs, Warnock and Hampson with Cotchin alongside Judd, Murph, Gibbs and carrots.

I know which option I would rather take.

Before the deluge of vitriol floods in, i love Kreuzer, love his work ethic and attitude, and accept injuries have hampered him. It just doesn't tip the balance for me in this debate.

Good post, i agree with pretty much all you have mentioned. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, life is full of what ifs.
Would our side be better with Cotchin, Selwood, Pendelbury, Tahlia, Rich etc? Probably.

Agree that every club gets it right sometimes and wrong sometimes. Hell, in Richmond's case, when you consider how many they stuffed up, they were due a good'un with Cotchin. We've made some poor choices, but some have been inspired also. I'm not willing to put Kreuz in either basket just yet.

At the time Kreuz was the natural choice. We lacked decent tall timber, and the fact he could have impact up forward was another plus. As has been said, he's never had a solid run at it as far as injuries have been concerned, but also that his workload was too much, too early. A lot of comparisons were made to Josh Fraser, who never reached the heights a #1 pick should be expected of because he was destroyed from day one, and so far it looks as though Kreuz is following the same path. We can point the finger a number of different ways as to who is responsible, but I'm not willing to give up on the big fella just yet. All of that said, I'd be curious to see what the Cotch-advocates were saying back then, or when Cotchin was struggling with his injury woes (I recall a number of mocking towards Richmond supporters saying "Cotch will win a Brownlow because he's had a full season" over and over both here and on BF) as retrospect is always 20/20.

Anyway, onto the game. I am not confident at all. Tigers will have their day against us sooner or later, and given our performance last weekend and the clear weaknesses we insist on showing, I wouldn't be surprised if this is their time.

_________________
WADA medical director Dr Alan Vernec describes Essendon* FC drug case as biggest scandal in team sport the world of sport has seen. #WC2WB

#GUILTY

The tiges definitely have a braver vibe about them this year


The brave tiger cubs coming of age

I'm hoping that Malty has been keeping our powder dry over the pre-season comp, a Rd 1 win over the Tuggers always brings a smile.

_________________
"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

..no, i didn't say that, but it's not too far a reach either in my opinion.. ..i didn't say cotchin was gonna be as good as judd/gazza either, did i.. .... ..and if we could go back, i'd still pick Krooz over cotchin, every day of the week.. ..cos with that kind of hindsight, every draft we could have picked up a mid as good as cotchin, but only one draft offered us Krooz..

..in regards to your retrospective ruck stocks, we could argue that if we didn't chase knockers superhard, we'd still have sauce.. ..and honestly, sauce is a good ruck, but not as good as krooz, it's just he's had a better run with consistency, has been given 1st ruck outright [huge in regards to development], and as of last season has better ruck to mid structures/training..

..cotchin isn't as good as murphy, and offers less in my opinion than gibbs.. ..ppl may laugh at that, but cotchin as good as he is, gets a little hyped up too due to being the tigers main man.. ..his 2012 season wasnt as good as murph's 2011, and brownlow votes only tell the story that he had no-one pinching votes off him.. .. ..2011 murphy [and mitchell] recieved votes in the most games over the season, that's super consistent good play.. ..its just with competition for votes, murphy got lots of 1's and 2's in that season from the umps [doubt we'll see that again].. ..and in regards to charlie votes, last season opener when players were meant to be fully fit, in the game vs tigers round 1, cotchin blitzed it early, but was shut down after by carrots.. ..in that game, Krooz scored the 3 votes.. ..krooz is just as capable as cotchin for ripping a team apart, with half the number of disposals i might add..

..krooz fully fit rips a team apart, its just we havent seen him fully fit for a long time and early pre-knee he was still a kid.. ..this season opinions will swing back in his favour.. ..just keep him as 1st ruck, and watch him go..

..in regards to this game, cotchin will need to be watched, cos his history of playing with krooz and their friendship,, has them understanding eachother's game.. ..cotchin will rove more taps from krooz than maric, and will need to be watched [carrots again?], or he will rip us apart not from his own team, but playing off of krooz.. ..also, at some point in the game, watch krooz crunch him.. ..every game he does..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

BKB.. Putting Kreuzer in a discussion with the most dominant/damaging ruck man since Simon Madden is a massive, massive reach. He's Carlton, we all love him but that's just silly at this point. Let's see him put in even one consistent season at Cox's level first. that would only put him 8-9 of those behind Cox.

And I would take Cotchin over Gibbs. They are both great players, but Cotchin is at another level. You could build a club around Cotchin, and Richmond will. Looks like Gibbs will have his chance in the middle to influence a game like Cotchin, lets see if he's up for it.

Anyway on to the game. I think it will be a typical Rd 1 game. Close for 2-3 quarters, and then we will pull away in the last. Think Mick has got more than enough ammunition to be a bit of a drill sergeant the last week and a bit and hammer home the key messages. There won't be any complacency in the team at all, and I can't see any significant change to the Richmons back line which curb Eddie and Jeff when the ball hits the deck.

Chaplin has a decent record on Betts to be fair..

_________________
BLUES 2010: PAV AND JUDD = FLAGS. DOING IT FOR THE LOVE OF DICK PRATT.

HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR TALKINGCARLTON SUPERCOACH 2009 YET?

..i don't think it's a reach, prior to doing his knee most of the 'football world' was comparing krooz to cox, naturally it just takes time for him to mature into that level/style of play.. ..the acl set him back 2-3 yrs, but the potential is there for pretty much everyone to see..

..i reckon you'll see Gibbs reach, and bypass Cotchin's level this year if we keep him in the middle.. ..play him in the middle all season and he'll justify going #1.. ..i'm not downgrading cotchin, i think he's a good mid and will get better,, but he's hyped up a bit too.. ..the way ppl bang on about him, you'd think he was judd/gazza level and he's not.. ..he may get there, but i doubt it.. ..i doubt many will to be honest, those are the kind of mids that are on another level.. ..once in the generation type players, cotchin is good but you'll find his equal in every draft, possibly in the same draft too..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

As a matter of interest I wonder which of the 2 would have been chosen, had MM been coaching us at the time rather than Ratts.

Ditto

..who knows, but going by the fact they picked up Fraser, gave a 1st round pick to brions for Wood, and pushed hard for Jolly [with obvious benefit], i'd say that MM understands the value of a topline ruck.. ..lookit, it's by far easier to accumulate good mids than kpps, and of kpps, rucks are hardest to find..

..likewise, WCE's had Cox, with still plenty of years left on the clock, picking up NicNat, who was all potential, but was also all at sea on the footyfield, and had iffy skills,, when he was drafted.. ..Mathews grabbed Luey, he also knew the value of a topline ruck come finals.. ..you can argue, how well would have the cats gone if they didn't have Ottens come finals..

..make no mistake, it's far harder to get a good ruck than it is to get a good mid, and when you have the opportunity to grab a ruck as 'secure' as Krooz or Luey, you grab them.. ..yes, ppl will say it's better to just trade for an experienced ruck.. ..but, how's that worked out for us in regards to KPFs..??.. ..you can't just expect players to be available when you want them, and even if they are you have to be able to either organise a trade, or have spare cash to buy in free agents.. ..and that's not easy to achieve..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Ditto

That's how I felt about Luey and Kreuzer.
Jimmae pointed out Kreuzer the year before he was drafted...he was amazing and one day will be amazing in the seniors.

People have to remember what Cox was like when he was 18: Kreuzer was light years ahead of him at the same age.
The same applies when Cox was 19, 20, 21, 22, 23..then things started to go right for Cox after 24 yo and at 25 he hit his straps. Kreuzer isn't there yet, but he's shown to be ahead of Cox when we compare them at the same age.

I'm not saying he will be better than Cox. I believe he will be equal to if not better, but that's just my opinion.

We didn't know how Hammer was going to go when we recruited him the year before, whether he'd become a KP or ruck or whatever. Nor did we know what Jacobs would be when he was overlooked by every team and we recruited him as a rookie. Perhaps he developed his skills because he was training and competing with 3 other good ruckmen...who knows....and as for Warnock, well when fit he can dominate his position.

Cotchin is damn good and elusive almost Ablett like, but he's had his challenges and he will be given closer attention this year, so lets see what happens there. I do recall that in the first 3 years of their AFL career Kreuzer was miles ahead of Cotchin; Cotchin had achilles injury and disrupted preseasons. Since, Kreuzer had a knee reconstruction and in under that circumstance it is obvious that a fit and primed Cotchin is going to be better than a guy who has stitches in his knee sitting on the sidelines.

Both great players for their age, and will be in the future too. Both play different roles and are different players and both provide great value for their side.

I'm glad we've got Kreuzer.

Next Thursday we'll see the two of them fit and primed for 2013 season...lets see their value.
My bet is that both will impress, and Kreuzer will be a better ruckman that Cotchin and Cotchin will be a better rover than Kreuzer. Kreuzer however may end up being a better ruck rover, and lets see who kicks the highest score. As for value to their team...lets hope the winner is Carlton!

Carlton vs Richmond
Kreuzer vs Cotchin

Bring it on!

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

This cannot come quick enough.

_________________
dane's trolling again

thats NOT what she said...

_________________
*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

They might as well give us the 4 points now.

After all......in 2011 we got to within a kick of a preliminary final TM

_________________
It's never as good as it looks and it's never as bad as it seems.