Seems obvious to me. I'd refer to it as being better informed.

wow!

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Informed about what Heady?
I dont doubt BVs insight into footy and respect it... more than most....

But.... it happens out on the field on match day... and thats where i see a dogsbreakfast on so many levels.
I see a kneejerk coach.
I see complete capitulation of structures and setups.
I see a group of confused footballers.

Are my eyes deceiving me?(yeah i know my eye sight isnt flash)

I cant find one person who can explain what were doing....... maybe everybodys eyes are [REDACTED]??.... now can you explain to me the gameplan and why we cant kick out???

Lets just start with kickouts.. nice and simple... tell me.. im all ears...

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because a) training is the process for what they are learning (along with those meetings that some have sneered at although all clubs have them) for now and the future
and b) matchday is showing where we are in the continuum of that process working towards that future goal.

You want b to = a already

some of us disagree and think b will = a with a bit more time

we cannot convince you of this

and you cannot convince us that it will not happen

and we both agree it is not happening (for us because of players and coach, for you because of coach and lack of gameplan) at the moment except in flashes - which to some, is similar to what has happened to recent teams that have improved but not to you and others.

the rest is just a merry go round of posts...

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

training is theory..

gameday is reality.

if youre training to the wrong theories.
gamedays go bellyup....

thats how it is...

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you always had a far better way with words than i DB

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

rofl, training is theory, gameday is reality.

do you even understand the concept of training?

do you think a pilot, who has a couple flying lessons is ready to take an F-11 into combat?

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

Well yeas Synbad like you I recognise we have problems on field .... but without knowing what goes on behind those closed doors outer doors, let alone the closed inner doors, it is just speculation as to why things go wrong on game day.

Does T'bird hang on to the ball for half an hour because that's what he's told to do, or because that's what he was conditioned because he was shit scared of making a mistake, and now cannot break out of the habit? He used to have a high efficiency rate under Pagan you kow.

Are some players not gut running because they see Peter Pan as a leader, and even subconscioudly think if it's good enough for him it's good enough for me? We don't know, so we guess at what is going on. I am positive I am less informed than the coach on these matters, so I am at a disadvantage, and I don't see how you or anyone else here who is not involved in the football department can make any more than fairly speculative copmments, based upon the limited information at our disposal. And the more information you have (such as seeing what happens at training, rather than just saying players don't know the game plan or that there isn't one), the more informed can be the assessment of what is going on.

I do know I saw similar games at Hawthorn, for one, a few years ago.

I'm not overly happy with what I've seen this year, but then I reckon we were starting from a long way behind every other club, and while I really hope we can make finals, I'm not sure that's a reasonable expectation, specially after the loss on Saturday of Waite who is the best of that key older experienced player group (bar Judd) and has definitely markedly improved his game under Ratten.

very much agree with you.

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TC suffers from the social media illness - the death of respect and constructive discourse by keyboard.

Every team has injuries.
But the good teams have a gameplan that helps overocome things.

The problem with being shit for eight years is that people will continue to make excuses for another eight years... and it becomes 16 and so on.

Defeatist and loser mentality!!!....

You either are doing things right or not...

and the only evidence i need to look at is on the field.

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This argument just doesn't cut it.

You just can't say on one hand that the time for excuses is over and then continue to argue, as you have done, that it is all the coach without apportioning any personal responsibility to the players. In your zeal to nail Sticks and Ratten you are in fact excusing the players

Structures are vitally important, but so are the human resources within those structures.

As remote as it may seem to you both the players and coaches need to improve in certain areas.

The human resource most important for structures is the human resource that can plan for them and set them up with whats available.
For he is the coach you want.

If we have a coach who bemoans the fact its all ard unless he has Cox.. Scarlett.. Riewoldt and Gablett....he aint the coach for us..

Now our coach hasnt cried he doesnt have those players to add... but some supporters have... cos the coach hasnt done the job with what he has....

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

That's a motherhood statement...just as you need a gameplan that suits your team is.

Who is this coach we want? What is the gameplan that suits us?

Going to training could give you an insight into the possibility that some players aren't doing what they are told or are taking things too far The more information you have the better informed the opinions. We are also not privy to what they are being taught in the "classroom" or individual instructions. I think Lyon after a game last season or the one before when he was under the pump for having a too defensive gameplan considering the attacking resources he had at his disposal answered a question with..."Do you really think I asked everyone to be behind the ball especially when we were behind"

I don't disagree that Ratts needs to improve and that some of the things that he wants to do may have to be ditched. However a few other things may be at work to explain the perceived confusion, its there at times for sure, but not as often as you seem to think it is either.

You may hate it as it doesn't agree with your theory that we should adopt the Brazilian attitude to play, but we have improved defensively as a team. Your Brazilian theory that you used in another thread is one of the reasons that I don't think you are being totally logical and emotion seems to be running away with you...at times . I'm not sure how looking at how a team that has contained, over the years, so many of the worlds most technically gifted players can be applied to us...even in theory

Some of our confusion I think is due to some of our players not being naturally defensive. Some are having a struggle with the concepts involved and would much rather run forward of the ball. We are trying to value possession of the ball which is also a foreign concept to some This means at times that we lack fluidity and in valuing possession especially in the back half we are being too careful at times. We have a team that has a number of individuals who are naturally inclined to attack, but are being taught to defend an adjustment period is inevitable. In the future I think we will be better at getting the balance right, although a few of our current players may never adjust to two way football and will need to be replaced. This is also complicated by our over reliance on Fev. This causes contradictions as we want our mids to be goal scoring options yet be defensively accountable. It is a tough balance to achieve and is still a work in progress.

We have only really set up a proper development program this season and a number of our players have been drilled over a number of years to play simplistic football that is the antithesis of the modern games needs in terms of decision making and execution.

Our players are being retaught how to play modern football. Is it any wonder that at times they look confused. Until we bridge the decision making and execution gap our top end talent will not be able to pull as through. Once a few players come through who are quicker with their decision making and execution skills, especially in the back half, coupled with improvement by those who are already regulars I think you will find we will become much better at transitional play (unfortunately some regulars may not be up to it)

I am willing to give Ratts more leeway simply because I have captain coached a couple of teams (although the bench coach is really the man on gameday ) and have been in management for a long time. Sometimes shock... horror...people don't do what you tell them to do You may think they do understand what is required and they may spout words back to you that would seem to indicate that they are on board, but when it comes to implementation for various reasons, for some, it all seems to go out the window.

I've played football with blokes who you tell to pick up their man, and they do, to the exclusion of all else. They will run past contests they should be impacting on and just follow their man around. You'll sit them down after a game and explain to them that although they are accountable for their man they should also help out their team-mates. The next game they will continually leave their man to run to contests they can't impact on to help their team-mates. Their bloke will then have a field day running around unattended. You then sit down with the bloke and go through scenarios encompassing the options they have in certain situations, although you swear you have gone through these situations pre-season with the team as a whole and this bloke indicated he understood. Next game comes around and "bugger me dead" the bloke is only doing the last thing you told him and isn't using initiative. You would swear that they only have one brain cell and can only retain the last thing you have told them and intelligence doesn't always seem to be the criteria as to which individuals do this either. It's as if one concept becomes a mantra running through their mind to the exclusion of all else. Some people for various reasons just really struggle with decision making and initiative.

When you couple some peoples inability to use initiative and the rigid simple structure that Pagan seemed to favor, although he did also seem to be across the Orwellian concept that some are more equal than others, you get confusion when players are asked to play modern football which requires a great deal of decision making. Some of these guys are having their brains rewired, for some it will be too late and for others they may never have been capable, but hopefully enough will improve to make us a premiership hope in a few years time Conversely this doesn't let Ratten off the hook. I just think it is a combination of Ratts and the players needing to improve.