3 Ruckmen does not work unless one of the ruckman is willing to play permanent forward and can run fast and can mark. Hampson might be able to do this.

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I am as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!!!

I'm with you about Hampsons mobility, his marking and knowledge have to improve.
Last year he kicked 6 in the reserves I believe so he has shown some promise.

My concern is Warnock more than what to do with Hampson.
He's a good ruckman but loses his bearings when forward and gets pushed off the ball way to easy.

He sure is a weapon, but hardly a secret

Certainly a big key to our premiership chances.

May I suggest that it is no secret that Hampson will play forward in the NAB games. That will go a long way towards determining if he is capable of holding down a key forward spot. If he can everything flows from there.

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"Get ready, Teddy - you're on": Ron Barassi half time 1970 Grand Final

You may indeed.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Go on, then, suggest it.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

Onya club.
I understand your concerns, and both of us offer a school of thought, and one is right. We can't prove which is right and which is wrong, we just have to discuss and see. So thanks for your comments.

First thing I would suggest is that I'm not on my own suggesting K is a ruck rover. Listen to Richardson yestrday on K.
I haven't heard anyone from the club show any doubt that K is not a great athlete who has the stamina to run all day. I think that's where you and some others disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

I expect K would be able to either get the ball himself and dish it off to the runners....so we get 1st possession moreso than we have.
I'd expect K to relieve Judd and Murphy to an outside running role more than we have now...reckon them freed up is a bonus
I think it would prolong the life span and preserve energy levels of Judd and Murphy and probably Simmo ...

I love what Warnock showed in the finals and IMO he gave Cox and NicNat a ruck lesson. Warnock in form is a class ruckman.
I think we lacked a strong body on the ground in the 2nd and 3rd quarters and that heavy RR work was left to Judd and Murphy..they can't do that for 70 mins either....footy is a tough gig and we need to spread the load imo.

Warnock needed a break, and with K and Hammer out injured he did a mammoth job, but nevertheless he needed a rest. Nic Nat would have jumped all over K and I do not see K as a better tap ruckman than Warnock and Hammer. Hammer would have been better against the jumping Nic Nat. I reckon we need to win the ruck first (with the best ruckman) , then we get the pill on the ground after the tap (where we need stength, size and abilit). After that we need to move the ball to our speedsters (freed up on the outside). If we have the big body of K amongst Judd, Murphy...I reckon that's an advantage and a weapon we can use to get the ball first after winning the tap. I believe that's the objective.

As for the spread suggestion, I reckon K's RR counterpart would have to be mindful of K especially if we have the ball; that's the flipside. I believe that K can hold his own...and not all our "better" midfielders can keep up with Judd and Murphy, just the same as K can't. Judd and Murphy are exceptional. I reckon K could easily beat and keep up with WCE RR.

I can't imagine K being left alone to wonder forward on his lonesome....he's a good kick for goal too....and a better mark than all RR in the AFL.

I look at history and remember the introduction of the Colligwood 6 foot wingmen (185). I see that Judd is a RR whilst Big Nick was a ruckmen but they were the same height at 187cms. I saw Kouta at 190cms become the modern day footballer as a RR. Now I see K as the prototype RR of the next era. People and the human race is growing taller and that doesn't mean they lose their athleticism, it means ruckmen are getting taller, and RR are getting taller and rovers are getting taller and CHF are getting taller....and faster, and stronger. Bodies change over time and I believe this is what we are seeing with K as a RR.

Lets not forget that Ratts, Richo and Riley have all suggested that K is capable of playing RR, and that's where the whole notion started with me.

As for Hampson at FF....I reckon with an open forwardline, and his pace...and our ability to win the ball...and the improvement in his eyesight and ability there aint going to be any FBs who are going to stop him. We have a great midfield with fantastic disposal skills by foot....stop them if you can after K gives them the ball.

Bring on season 2012. There's going to be about 10 players every week on our list who will miss out on a berth in the first 22, and amongst them will be one of our ruckmen, but I also I expect we will see the 3 "ruckmen" played in the same game during the season because weather, form and ability allows for this...oh yeah...and it depends what the competition throws at us.

Last year in the final against WCE at one stage we had to combat Lynch, Darling, Kennedy, Cox in the forwardline with Nic Nat running in there to provide an abundance of height advantage. We couldn't cover them all on a dry "good for marking" type of night. They won the final.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Nicely argued, BB.

I too doubt whether Kreuzer as RR would work. But it's certainly worth a try. It's not as if we're bursting with inside midfield extractors. And we'll get more spread from Kreuzer than we will from McLean. Kreuzer is smart and courageous (and he's one of the few on our list who knows how to hurt) and he'd certainly provide some of the needed protection for Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, etc. I also reckon he's one of our best at distributing via handball on our list (both vision and execution). So he's certainly got some of the necessary weapons.

We all know he's a super talent. But I've wondering for a little while how we can get the best out of him. Perhaps this is it. I'd certainly love to see someone like Kreuzer to give a bit back to Jordan Lewis and Brad Sewell and Sam Mitchell and Luke Hodge, next time we play Hawthorn.

That shouldn't have to be Kreuzer, although he has the size for it. We need some of Robbo, Ellard, Joseph, McLean and those types to provide grunt in the midfield. Kreuzer is mobile so let him be mobile and let the hard nuts be hard nuts.

I agree with Bondi. Kreuzer is not a tap ruckman. I want Warnock to improve just the same. He gets his hand to the footy but it often goes to the wrong person or side of the pack. Or just drops too close to his feet. If you get the huitout, sometimes it's a good thing to clear the pack. Natanui is a master of it. Every now and then he just belts it into space towards goal. If Warnock did that occasionally, he would be less predictable and opposition midfields wouldn't be so sure about how to set up.

Hampson is also better as a tap ruckman than Kreuzer at stoppages. I thik Kreuzer is better at throw ins.

I want them all to play. Warnock ruck and bench, Kreuzer ruck/ruck rover and occasional FF, Hampson FF and occasional ruck. Warnock might rest forward late in games when he can try and pluck the odd mark or provide Walker with a massive stepladder.

Teams are kicking longer each year so tall forwards who can mark will be the next big thing along with mids who can kick goals from outside fifty. The defensive zone will become obsolete if tall players can hold marks so we may see a return to man on man footy in the next couple of years inside the 50 metre arc With any luck we might even see a return to positional play one day. Doubt that. But it was pretty.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

Agree with Bondi. Kruezer has the smarts around a stoppage that only natural footballers possess. His work off the deck is as good as anyones and although he lacks pace, his first 5 is very good and comes with a lot of power to break out of packs/tackles as well. That's where Brock has really struggled to date.

Secondly, at 200cm, Kruez is undersized for a ruckman. Around the grounds it isn't a huge issue but in the middle, he finds it difficult to compete against the big guys.
Yes, he lacks the desired pace to provide the ideal spread but conversely, he offers marking strength around the grounds that other mids dont. Give a bit, take a bit. Personally, I'd love to see him get 5 minute stints as a midfielder, especially at centre bounce stoppages where 30 players are not around the ball. Thats where his power and smarts can really come to the fore.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

A lot will be said for injuries. If we are blessed this year and avoid too many we are a big shot as I think our best 22 is as good as anyone's

Collingwood have some worries with their best players coming into
The season with injuries.

Good post. You run though the pro's and con's of the suggestions very well. Personally i think playing him onball next to another big ruckman is overkill and will compromise our defence too much. It would be an attacking move however and could work in stints. So far we havent seen the tactic used so we cant really say how kruezer will go playing on a zippy onballer. So far all we have seen him up against is another tall player (op ruckman).

I think K is good enough to provide the grunt in the packs while playing as a ruck (second ruck). That way we also get to play another onball running player around the packs at the time and also can have an onballer in the 22 rather than a 3rd ruck that will help us run out games better by capitalising on our rotations and our strength in the running department.

Kreuzer, while our no.2 tap ruckmen in any game is our no.1 ruckman given other aspects he brings. While he won't win as many centre bounce taps he'll win enough. While be perfect as a ruck combination with Warnock. A few bursts in the midfield may have a great effect, especially with the physical strength getting out of the middle, not to mention his run, strength and marking around the ground. He'll more than make up for the fact he'll lose a few taps. He's our best option resting forward too. Warnock and Hampson, while excellent ruckmen, aren't forwards backsides although, under the current set up, they will have to spend a bit of time resting there. Although a scratch match admittedly Hammer still dropped his marks. His strength is tap rucking and working around the ground with his mobility. Think we can drop the idea he is going to be a FF. Ridiculous notion and won't work. Thornton showed he was alot better prospect forward as did Casboult. Will be the same will Rowe and Waite when they're back. No need to use ruckmen in key positions. Why would you.

I agree Warnock or Hampson playing first ruck and Kreuzer second is the way to go. The first ruck will have to rest forward though to help the midfield rotations. That will give us the legs as a team to run out games. You want to go into games with only the talls you think you really need. Running players are more important.

My best 22 will have 2 rucks (Warnock/Hampson and Kreuzer). 2 talls playing forward (Waite and Walker), 2 tall defenders (Henda and Jamo).
Finals as the pressure increases i would look to squeeze another tall into the forward line and push Walker up the ground a little.

2 weeks ago at Visy Park during a training session, it was reported that Kreuzer beat or equalled Murphy in a 100m race .
He can't be that slow. I've seen him beat a handful of opponents over a 20m contest...easily. He's amazing below the knees and understands the game well. Even as a kid, he always did and still races in readiness for the next contest. He doesn't sulk or argue with umpires..he knows the game.

What I'm saying is that 3 ruckmen at Carlton is not 2 lumbering ruckmen...and a possibility.
I like what club 29 said about overkill, and agree to a degree, but every now and then I believe we should mix it up and share the load...even to include Walker and Betts in the midfield for short periods.

Does anyone else agree that Warnock is our No 1 ruckman when fit and in form?

I've got my fingers crossed with Hammer turning the corner in 2012.

Otherwise we're all correct...we are contenders for the 2012 flag.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Kreuzer sure did but it was the yo-yo test and regardless, he is far from slow.
I think he just has that mental capacity to push himself harder than most, which was evident through that test.

Warnock is our best tap ruck-man, Hampson the best athlete to take on Natanui and ilk-type ruck-men and Kreuzer is just Kreuzer.

Make no mistake though, the MC will have some real issues formualting the right mix, if all three ruck-men are up and running.

How does he go on the lap of PP. That's a better indication of whether he can sustain his pace. I am surprised he can go with Murphy, though, even over a short distance.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

Sorry i missed this post yesterday Bondi.

Big K can take the ruck contest and then get in after it. That way he is playing on a ruckman that he can exploit rather than playing on a mid like Swan, Pendlebury, Abblet etc who would more than likely take advantage of his lack of agility (compared to theirs). I doubt big K could go with those guys all day and if he could go close it would bust him physically lugging that frame around for 70 mins a game for 22 rounds. We dont need Warnock rucking it down to k. We have players that he can knock it down to.

I watched WC most of the year and they rarely played all those big blokes in the arc at the same time if ever. If they put close to that many in there is was rarely effective. Le cras, Kennedy, Darling playing as a flanker and Nicolski was the combo that was most dangerous with Nic Nat in there too sometimes.

They may have tried that stunt on us to try and scare us in to moving a tall player out of our desired structure once Thornton went down. ( I was overseas for that game and will never watch it)

Anyway i think we have made our points. Will have to see how it unfolds.

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Blues want Kreuzer to provide ingredient X Article in yesterday's Age article by Murnane

Quote:
Carlton midfielder Kade Simpson said Kreuzer had the athleticism and endurance to make a big impact as a pinch-hitting ruck rover.

''It's definitely been thrown up,'' he said of the option yesterday. ''If Hampson and Robbie [Warnock] are both rucking well, I'm sure Kreuz will probably play a bit of ruck-rover.

''When the ball hits the ground, he's like another midfielder, he's so good in that second and third efforts. He's brilliant for us.''

''It's great to see him moving so freely. He's got his spring back in his legs. He's so versatile and he's going to be a big bonus for us this year,'' he said.

Like I said, it's no secret and never has been.
Kreuzer is an exceptional athlete and underestimated by some even within the Blue brethren.
He's hot property...and what I'm suggesting is if we win the ruck (with the best ruckman) the ball has a better chance to fall under Kreuzer's nose, or in his vicinity...and you know the rest....Swan and Pendlebury can't get around noe shift Kreuzer so we don't have to worry so much about them getting the ball. If we lose the ruck to Jolly or even Nic Nat well we don't have the same advantage, but neverthless Kreuzer will be waiting for the crumbs.

Not for the duration of the game, but we need to share the midfield load as well as provide head aches for the opposition.

Its great to watch this season unfold. We have a great midfield group...more mature and much stronger than 2011

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

bondi, could you please provide a link to the article you're quoting from? Thanks!

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010