I'm in the Kreuzer for Ruck Rover camp, or if you want to call it playing 3 ruckmen, then so be it.

Having selected that way, I only need classy midfielders on the bench to rotate through the midfield.
I'm hoping that Russell can step up this year to release Yarran onto a wing.

B: Tuohy Jamison Laidler
HB: Duigan Henderson Russell

C: Simpson Judd Yarran
R: Warnock Kreuzer Murphy

HF: Gibbs Waite Garlett
F: Walker Hampson Betts

I: Robinson Scotland Carrazzo

SUB from: Lucas Curnow Joseph Armfield.

Nothing has changed for me since the draft and the addition of Rowe and Bootsma other than believing that Tuohy's pace and footy smarts/ability may well be good enough to displace Armfield's pace.

I expect Lucas to step up.

Depth players with AFL ability include Bower Ellard and Thornton.
Rowe and Mitchell may release Waite from CHF...then watch out.

Carlton can win the flag this year with the squad we have.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Pretty much my team, Bondi, looks good.

Can't help but think JR is in our best 22, why else would MC keep him in the leadership group?

What depth, Lucas and Curnow vying for the sub says it all, as much as I'd love to find a place for them. If Duigan misses a few matches at the start of the year, I'd expect Lucas to slot in for him and good luck to Duigs if he can force him out!

Yes, we can go all the way with this squad.

[GoogleVideo][/GoogleVideo]
I,m with you all the way Bondi

almost exactly what I had earlier, but I got bagged for going three talls,

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

You know footy and in particular Carlton as well as anybody kk.
Who cares what others think about your choice of 3 ruckmen.
If you believe in playing 3 ruckmen and have good reason then stick to it. There's nothing wrong with that.
Hampson and Kreuzer have speed other ruckmen would only dream of.

Anyone who thinks Kreuzer can't ruck rove hasn't watched what he does time and time again after he wins the tap and chases his own ball.
He's a huge body, and like Kouta damn hard to get around in the midfield. Similarly, Kreuzer will win a bucket load of clearances for the same reasons Kouta did...imo.
I reckon he could put a great shepherd in for Judd and Murphy; he's the size of 2 players.

So they way I like to look at it is:

Warnock = 1st ruck
Hampson = FF
Kreuzer = Ruck rover.

I think that implies I am only playing one ruckman with support for him from the FF and RR.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Looking at my team from September I have no reason to revise yet. Maybe once I see Rowe play then I could well revise but at this point I'll stick. Just the technicality of being on zero games for now means I can't put him in a best 22. That means forwards playing forward, ruckman playing ruck, where, they suited, and resting forward. Ruckmen rarely make it as KP forwards. Thornton has played KP forward alot better than Hampson ever has and I'm guessing Rowe will do the same.

B: Joseph Jamison Laidler
HB: Yarran Henderson Duigan
C: Gibbs Robinson Simpson
HF: Garlett Thornton Walker
F: Kreuzer Waite Betts
Foll: Warnock Judd Murphy

I/C: Carrazzo Touhy Scotland

Sub: Lucas

I'm in the 3 rucks camp.
I'm also in the Hampson to FF camp.
It's a coincidence that he is a ruckman for mine.
The reality is if he plays at FF, he will be the FF and we will have two ruckmen.
If we are not going so well with the combo we have, we can easily change Kreuzer to FF and Hampson to the ruck. I think Warnock should also spend some time leaning against the post because if nothing else, it will give the mids the certainty of knowing he is there if other options aren't available. It will also stop the FB from dashing away to help out an leaving the BP to look after the square.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

three talls?!

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dane's trolling again

Superb post bb.

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dane's trolling again

Essendon* showed 3 rucks don't work. Rarely ever does . Problem is few ruckmen ever make great KP forwards and been that way for years. Hammer's proved he's no key forward. We still have to see if he can take a mark there first, then after that read the ball coming in, time his lead and know how to run to the right spots. You don't train that overnight, if at all. Understand that and you soon understand why ruckmen rarely make permanent key forwards. Why put a ruckman there who has no idea how to play KP forward. Why put one there when you have blokes who can play KP forward. We have Waite to play FF with Thornton or Rowe to play CHF. Two are way better options and the 3rd one will probably be too once we see him. They'll be better marks and much better key forwards without doubt.

Hampson will be fighting with Warnock for the first ruck spot.

2 rucks only for me.
Waite and Walker with the occasional resting ruckman up forward should suffice for 'tall forwards'.
We need pace and defensive pressure up forward

Gday Bondi,
Nice post but what do you think we expect to gain from playing kreuzer around the ball along side a ruckman? Remember he would be taking a position from another good player.
You said it yourself that he hits it out and then gets in after it so why then bring Warnock into it. Just leave big K in the ruck if that is what you want.

At the most we will get a couple of extra marks around the ground but we would lose too much elsewhere. Big K is good and athletic for a big man but i could bet his agility and stamina is not up with the proper onballers like Judd, Murph, Gibbs, Simpson etc. He would be great in close with his bulk and fearless play but once the ball gets out of the bubble he wouldn't be able to provide the spread offensively or cover defensively for 70 mins a game the same way Simpson, Scotland or even a fit Russell would.

I like Krooz around the ball but as a ruckrover while we have another ruck up forward would be virtually leaving us a man down late in quarters and late in games so IMO we play with two rucks.

If we want to throw another tall around the ball for a short stint to catch a team out we can still do it by changing our forward structure a little.

Indications are that we are building for speed and Warnock may not be reeady for round 1, anyway.
He's still our best tap ruck-man, but it wouldn't take too much for him to spend the year in the 2's either.

Sorry Jim just because it didn't work at Essendon* doesn't mean it won't work elsewhere.
With the amount of coach's everyone has these days some personnel guidence isn't or shouldn't be out of the question.

You're right redback, although it never working in the history of the game probably settles the argument for the time being. We'd need two of them to demonstrate genuine versatility before we entertained the prospect, and we'd probably need a tall forward (i.e. Waite) to show the propensity for genuine midfield play as well.

So far, we've not seen any of this. If we can bed Hampson as a regular tall option up forward, I think we'll have made great strides. From my stand point Warnock has a lot less to offer in the setup mooted, and his prospects look even worse given the condition he is in post-shoulder op.

Furthermore, the last time we saw Waite through the middle, he was the better part of 20 kilos lighter. I don't count runs off CHB, because we won't be using him there, we'll need him through the middle of the park helping close down the opposition.

So as it stands:

Waite to the midfield - NO
Kreuzer to the midfield - NO
Kreuzer as 3rd man up then pushing forward - YES

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Maybe in your dreams. Results tell otherwise. I don't live in hope, only realities. That's barely worked anywhere over decades. Very few exceptions. Essendon* was just another example.

Why are we different, simply because we barrack for Carlton? Why would you do it when you have better. Thornton was 8000 times better forward than Hampson ever was. We saw that last year. We only had to watch, it stood out. One was pretty good at it and had a great final, the other struggled alot. Why some would take the one the struggled with it first is beyond me. There's just no evidence from previous efforts. And there's a fair chance Rowe might be better again, who's a true genuine KP forward. I'm just waiting to see first before I put him in my best 22. If he looks it, and I'm sure there's a fair chance, he'll be in ahead of Thornton.

It's not hard to understand why rucks rarely make key forwards, as I explained above in that red. Anyone who knows anything at all about the game knows that. Bit more to just being big and jumping. Not only that you lose that mobility if 3 are played. Key forward is a skill on it own as is ruck play, that's where their skills lie. Just just can't simply coach it or every club would do it. Might make them better, won't make them good. There lots of good coaches around with crap players. Coaching doesn't make them good. Why not use our coaches to make our KP forwards better if they're so good at it, and I'm sure they are, rather than ruckmen. Better use of resources.

Just because it didn't work at a certain club doesn't mean you should discount the theory.
Salmon made it his position.
Petrie made it his last year.
Coach's are seeing an advantage in that role and trying to take advantage.
I think it will be difficut to fit them all in the same side but I can't discount the possibility for it to work out until it has failed.
What I was saying is coach's are there to coach, not only the whole team but individuals for specific cases. If a player is assigned a role or position its the responsalility of the coaching staff to make sure that:
He has the talent for that role.
He has the understanding for the position.
He can execute his role to the teams benefit.
That's what I believe.

Waite is and should always be our main forward and have never said otherwise.

Petrie is a forward who can fill in as a ruckman.

Its extremely rare for a player taller than 196cm to make it as a forward. Salmon had half a season as a gun forward before going to Hawthorn to get a chance as a ruckman, Everitt was less successful as a forward before also going to Hawthorn. Maybe I've missed an obvious one.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

best games Kruezer has played for carlton havent been as a dominant ruckman or dominant forward.

my view of his potential has been based on his second efforts, positioning in play and assiting with the flow of play. A consistent theme in his 60 odd games.

Krooz is a modern day ruck rover

....and our secret weapon

He more than likely had a ruckman playing on him in those games. As a ruckrover he will be on a zippy onballer type that will kill him on the spread, kill him in the first 15m and lugging that big frame around the ground flat chat for 70 mins a game will ruin him.
Our defence will be compromised IMO. Just play him as a ruck/forward and get all the advantage of his second efforts and positioning anyway. That will give us an extra running player.