Kouta blasts Pagan (Denis' reply p4)

camel · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:12 am

buzzaaaah wrote:

Are we forgetting that in Brittains last year with all the great players happy with the coach and mcKernan firing we finished last.

That's a good point, but to be fair, we had a few games where we had just enough fit players to field 22 players each weekend.

As I have said for a long time, our list management woes stem back to c1996, or probably earlier really, as we never undertsood/accepted/utlisied the draft properly.

If Pagan got one thing right in his cliched post match press conferences it is that you need talent to be successful. G&D will only get you so far. A guy like Dean Rice is a wonderful complement to the likes of Kouta, Williams, Ratten et al, but 22 Dean Rices would never have won us a flag in 1995.

DownUnderChick · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:17 am

What say we all read the book before making comments based on creative editing.

The Duke · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:23 am

DownUnderChick wrote:

What say we all read the book before making comments based on creative editing.

Is it going to have pictures? I only read picture books.

Maybe I could read it to my 2 princesses at bedtime. I like to get into the characters voices when reading - can't wait to do the Denis :oops:

.

Sydney Blue · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:23 am

camelboy wrote:

buzzaaaah wrote:

Are we forgetting that in Brittains last year with all the great players happy with the coach and mcKernan firing we finished last.

That's a good point, but to be fair, we had a few games where we had just enough fit players to field 22 players each weekend.

As I have said for a long time, our list management woes stem back to c1996, or probably earlier really, as we never undertsood/accepted/utlisied the draft properly.

If Pagan got one thing right in his cliched post match press conferences it is that you need talent to be successful. G&D will only get you so far. A guy like Dean Rice is a wonderful complement to the likes of Kouta, Williams, Ratten et al, but 22 Dean Rices would never have won us a flag in 1995.

They started to address the list in 2000
they had picks 4 - 11 and 16 and traded Hamil whose out put was nothing once he left for pick 4
the following year they traded first round pick 14 and a dud ruckman for a guy who a year earlier was tearing the competition appart and should have won a Brownlow ( not to different to what we have just done but we paid less for him)
the next year was a tank and we were staring at 1,2 and 18 until the AFL stepped in

Brittain and co were addressing the list

the disasters in the list occurred when Pagan took over he refused to gamble on youth he keep trading shit for shit instead of taking a chance in the draft on late picks

DownUnderChick · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:27 am

The Duke wrote:

DownUnderChick wrote:

What say we all read the book before making comments based on creative editing.

Is it going to have pictures? I only read picture books.

Maybe I could read it to my 2 princesses at bedtime. I like to get into the characters voices when reading - can't wait to do the Denis :oops:

.

I myself am hoping for a pullout shot in the centre of the book of Kouta in the Adonis pose that was taken a few years back - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

The Duke · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:29 am

Sydney Blue wrote:

the disasters in the list occurred when Pagan took over he refused to gamble on youth he keep trading shit for shit instead of taking a chance in the draft on late picks

Sydney, Sydney, Sydney :roll:

. All I can ask is where the quality players are that came from 1996-2001.

All the players on the list are from the Pagan era. The problem with our team is we did not recruit anything that would equate to quality leadership at the age of 27+ right now.

woof · **Joined:** Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:51 am **Posts:** 4919

Sydney Blue wrote:

the following year they traded first round pick 14 and a dud ruckman for a guy who a year earlier was tearing the competition appart and should have won a Brownlow ( not to different to what we have just done but we paid less for him)

Are you comparing Chris Judd to Corey McKernan?

Stefchook · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 am **Posts:** 8184

SparkyBlue wrote:

Ockham's Razor wrote:

Thanks CB,

Interesting to hear DP's perspective.

Due credit to him for not getting in a slanging match with a Carlton great.

Keudos to you DP on maintaining your dignity this morning.

+ 1

...exactly what I think, like or hate the man (I know the general feeling), not dragging the club into more bad press is good - Pagan negating this story is the best possible outcome. He's no longer in football, and could have easily blasted all and sundry over this story.

If you disagree, obviously you haven't read enough of the bullshit, negative, Carlton-kicking stories of the past 3 years.

I agree as well.

CK95 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:35 am

So who was the mystery caller? Beaumont?

The Duke · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:36 am

woof wrote:

Sydney Blue wrote:

the following year they traded first round pick 14 and a dud ruckman for a guy who a year earlier was tearing the competition appart and should have won a Brownlow ( not to different to what we have just done but we paid less for him)

Are you comparing Chris Judd to Corey McKernan?

That's what I thought too :shock:

.

Corey was washed up long before we got our mits on him. He played reserves for North quit a bit before he crossed over.

Warby · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:37 am

Elwood Blues1 wrote:

I'm just waiting for Sticks book to come out.......

Virgin Blue · **Joined:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:32 pm **Posts:** 3021

Jarusa wrote:

I suppose it is only human nature to try and blame all the ills that befell the club on one person.

Nobody is doing that.

But while one can say 'credit where it's due', we can also say 'criticism where it's due', and Pagan is due for a lot of that.

Deano Supremo · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:40 am

The Duke wrote:

woof wrote:

Sydney Blue wrote:

the following year they traded first round pick 14 and a dud ruckman for a guy who a year earlier was tearing the competition appart and should have won a Brownlow ( not to different to what we have just done but we paid less for him)

Are you comparing Chris Judd to Corey McKernan?

That's what I thought too :shock:

.

Corey was washed up long before we got our mits on him. He played reserves for North quit a bit before he crossed over.

The Porter/McKernan trade was a disaster.

McKernan had one good year, and it was an eternity before he soiled our jumper with his presence.

4thchicken · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:44 am **Posts:** 3136

fully supportive of kouta coming out now and clearing up the past - For years we have had rumour/innuendo as to what was happening within the club. It was clear midway through 2003 that pagan wasnt the right man for the job and, at various times since then had 'lost' the players.

Warby · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:48 am

4thchicken wrote:

fully supportive of kouta coming out now and clearing up the past - For years we have had rumour/innuendo as to what was happening within the club. It was clear midway through 2003 that pagan wasnt the right man for the job and, at various times since then had 'lost' the players.

I agree.

79Vintage · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:59 am **Posts:** 1971

Kouta is the Elka Graham of the AFL.

Write first without thinking through the consequences of what you write.

There's no defence for Kouta, going down in the estimations of about 30% of the people on this thread. It's not, 'divided we conquer, together we defend.'

Goltzenberg · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:53 am

ACHILLES wrote:

79Vintage wrote:

No one is bigger than the club, but put a pen in Kouta's hand and he obviously thinks he is. The past is the past and a former captain in Kouta should let sleeping dogs lie and keep his silence. As a club in all ways we've moved on from the Pagan era, but Kouta has to drag us back into it, in the limelight of the football media. Kouta, if you've got something to get off your chest about Pagan, get yourself a pseudonym on Talking Carlton and vent your spleen, while keeping your identity as a former captain of the club secret, rather than doing it in public whilst earning a dollar.

You've really put yourself before the club in this instance Kouta.

Get your hand off your souvalaki :!:

Mate it is a Biography!
I for one, would like to know of all the crap that has happened over the past 5 years even if you don't.
Pagan deserves everything he gets! He killed the football club and that why no players wanted to come to us!

Hangon, Pagan turned the club around. It was shit when he got it, and he kept it shit for 3-4 years to get young talent in.

If it wasn't for Pagan, we wouldnt have Judd, Kruzer, Gibbs, Murphy

We wouldn't of had JK for the Judd deal

Pagan no doubt was trying to lose so the club could ressurge next year with more gun draft picks. Why would someone use a gameplan that didnt work for 3 - 4 years?

Instead of criticising pagan, we should be thanking him for putting one foot in front of the other and setting the club up for a crack at the finals next year

TheGame · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:53 am

Warby wrote:

4thchicken wrote:

fully supportive of kouta coming out now and clearing up the past - For years we have had rumour/innuendo as to what was happening within the club. It was clear midway through 2003 that pagan wasnt the right man for the job and, at various times since then had 'lost' the players.

I agree.

I agree it clears up the rumours. A poster at CSC said that he had it on good authority that Kouta hates Pagan and got blasted for it by the Paganites and was basically called a liar. They look pretty stupid now. :lol:

camel · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:54 am

Sydney Blue wrote:

camelboy wrote:

buzzaaaah wrote:

Are we forgetting that in Brittains last year with all the great players happy with the coach and mcKernan firing we finished last.

That's a good point, but to be fair, we had a few games where we had just enough fit players to field 22 players each weekend.

As I have said for a long time, our list management woes stem back to c1996, or probably earlier really, as we never undertsood/accepted/utlisied the draft properly.

If Pagan got one thing right in his cliched post match press conferences it is that you need talent to be successful. G&D will only get you so far. A guy like Dean Rice is a wonderful complement to the likes of Kouta, Williams, Ratten et al, but 22 Dean Rices would never have won us a flag in 1995.

They started to address the list in 2000
they had picks 4 - 11 and 16 and traded Hamil whose out put was nothing once he left for pick 4
the following year they traded first round pick 14 and a dud ruckman for a guy who a year earlier was tearing the competition appart and should have won a Brownlow ( not to different to what we have just done but we paid less for him)
the next year was a tank and we were staring at 1,2 and 18 until the AFL stepped in

Brittain and co were addressing the list

the disasters in the list occurred when Pagan took over he refused to gamble on youth he keep trading shit for shit instead of taking a chance in the draft on late picks

I'm not sure that 2002 was a tank season.

We were just shit, largely for the reasons I listed above.

Why do you reckon we have such a young list?

kingkerna · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:56 am

I don't mind him bagging Pagan, it's about time he copped some flak rather then all his mates and the media defending him all the time.

Having said that I would love to know if Kouta admits to playing one or two seasons too many.

Still won't buy the book though - would have to be ghost written if it's a decent read

Kouta blasts Pagan (Denis' reply p4)

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