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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:33 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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This is something that comes up each year, but I think it warrants a single point of discussion.

So what can the Carlton Football Club learn from the Western Bulldogs (or previous Grand Final winners, for that matter)?

To me, what it shows is (and what steps we've taken):

- The importance of the draft. Not just your first round picks, but your 2nds, 3rds and rookies. Use it to build one key area of the ground (in their case, the midfield) and build around that.
Last year was a good start, trading to move our position further up the list. Actually having a list manager who can see the long-term strategy (and not the panicky, ad hoc approach of yesteryear)

- Player development: Plenty of the Dogs' players were late picks, rookies or cast-offs. We have been atrocious in this area for so long, so much so that looking back on what has become of players of our last few drafts is a horror movie for the ages.
A work in progress, but Bolton's presence is a start.

- Make that big trade (ie Boyd) ONLY when you're at the point that only 1-2 gaps remain.
We've held off on this (for now)

- Don't be afraid to move on "favourite sons" (Griffen, Ward, Higgins) if the rewards are there for your future.
Moving Menzel on was a brave move, but looks to be coming off. We've given up players previously (Jacobs, Waite, Betts, Laidler, Garlett, Robinson) but for next to no return because we let the situations become untenable.

- Make yourself a destination club that people want to play for and can believe in, not somewhere they will get another 3-year overpriced deal for runs not yet on the board.
Again, Bolton is critical here. And Levi's 1-deal for $300k would've previously been 3-5 for $500k under previous regimes.

- Focus on players that can actually use the ball.
Yet to really start.

- Recruit a coach that is not only astute on game day, but has the total faith and trust of the players.
Bolton's done everything right so far, and the rest of our panel appear solid.

Based on this, we're at least moving in this direction. But obviously a LOOOONG way to go.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:50 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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A good fast surface for the northern team would help development.

I think even if you consider our ex- GWS players as 2nd and 3rd rounders or rookie quality, I think we have decent depth.

It's all down to Bolton and his team.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:56 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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What the dogs have done is different to the Hawks of previous years though. So which template do you follow?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:05 pm 
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Is it though? IMO the Hawks and Clarkson are the ones who set the template which others (like the Dogs) are now following. It's not by accident that clubs are clamouring for his proteges when the opportunity presents.

It seems that it's only in the past couple of years (dare I say it, when Trigg and MLG came on board) that we've woken up to the fact that things have changed from the 80s.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:10 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Rexy wrote:
A good fast surface for the northern team would help development.

I think even if you consider our ex- GWS players as 2nd and 3rd rounders or rookie quality, I think we have decent depth.

It's all down to Bolton and his team.


The surface the northern blues played on at Cramer street was disgraceful.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:16 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Great question and great suggestions

We all know success is multi factorial, the whole package

But if I'm reading Sedat right from the Bulldogs it came down to an inspired choice of an unfashionable coach who had had success at multiple lower levels (why?), who could relate to and inspire young players, and most importantly could develop them. Look at Liam Picken and what Beveridge did with him. Initially a solid smallish slowish ordinary tagger into a gun. Lateral creative thinking

Draft and develop under the right coach. Bolton's the man


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:36 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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The Bullies may have taken handball to another level
Hear mention of their handball club?
Don't think I've seen look-away or over the head handballs to that extent before.
Outnumber at the contest, in tight, quick hands and unexpected handoffs catching the opposition by surprise
Coaches smart and creative enough to push the envelope tactically


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:54 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Forget the coach he's a small part, the much larger part is Dalrymple. Drafting is pretty much everything and you need to treat each pick like gold.
Predicted they would win a flag within 4 years 2 years ago, wasn't hard to see they were nailing their midfield picks. Look at the mid depth they have too, it's incredible. They got a leg up from father sons but they built on it.
They didn't follow stupid conventional wisdom too i.e Daniel is too short even though he averaged huge numbers and high efficiency at the carnival and a measly 180sc or something outrageous , they picked Toby Mclean's and Clay Smith's while we pick Bootsma's. We should be doing our utmost to get one or two of Jong-Honeychurch-Hrovat.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:03 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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In previous years, they would have been all over the Pitman- Bunker- Comitogianni types late in the draft that the others miss. While we wouldn't have even known who they were and went on to draft fumblers.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:49 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

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Donstuie wrote:
This is something that comes up each year, but I think it warrants a single point of discussion.

So what can the Carlton Football Club learn from the Western Bulldogs (or previous Grand Final winners, for that matter)?

To me, what it shows is (and what steps we've taken):

- The importance of the draft. Not just your first round picks, but your 2nds, 3rds and rookies. Use it to build one key area of the ground (in their case, the midfield) and build around that.
Last year was a good start, trading to move our position further up the list. Actually having a list manager who can see the long-term strategy (and not the panicky, ad hoc approach of yesteryear)

- Player development: Plenty of the Dogs' players were late picks, rookies or cast-offs. We have been atrocious in this area for so long, so much so that looking back on what has become of players of our last few drafts is a horror movie for the ages.
A work in progress, but Bolton's presence is a start.

- Make that big trade (ie Boyd) ONLY when you're at the point that only 1-2 gaps remain.
We've held off on this (for now)

- Don't be afraid to move on "favourite sons" (Griffen, Ward, Higgins) if the rewards are there for your future.
Moving Menzel on was a brave move, but looks to be coming off. We've given up players previously (Jacobs, Waite, Betts, Laidler, Garlett, Robinson) but for next to no return because we let the situations become untenable.

- Make yourself a destination club that people want to play for and can believe in, not somewhere they will get another 3-year overpriced deal for runs not yet on the board.
Again, Bolton is critical here. And Levi's 1-deal for $300k would've previously been 3-5 for $500k under previous regimes.

- Focus on players that can actually use the ball.
Yet to really start.

- Recruit a coach that is not only astute on game day, but has the total faith and trust of the players.
Bolton's done everything right so far, and the rest of our panel appear solid.

Based on this, we're at least moving in this direction. But obviously a LOOOONG way to go.


I liked some of the things in this article.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... rt65j.html

"There were one or two blokes over the age of 30 that the red line had been through either at the end of this year or next year because Brendan believed in a seven-year plan [that] was going to get us into the finals some time in late 2019 or something," Gordon said.

"'Bevo' said to [list manager] Jason [McCartney], 'I just don't believe in this sort of stuff and I need you to know that there are a few guys on that list that I actually think can make pretty important contributions to us in the next couple of years'.

"It was born of Bevo's belief in two things really – one is that Hawthorn got a lot of success out of actually encouraging blokes like [Luke] Hodge and [Shaun] Burgoyne and [Sam] Mitchell to keep playing because of the ability they've got, and secondly because the younger players learn more and walk a bit taller because those guys were in the side."


You don't always need long term plans. You have a good nucleus of experience, use the draft well, both National and Rookie, have a great coach, who has the faith and trust of his players and develops well and things can change very quickly. More importantly you need a club with a great on-field culture that have players that would "die" for each other, the coach and the club every week, not pick and choose as we do. You go no-where without that. Not a hope of a flag no matter how good you are.

Dogs had alot of players from the rookie draft yesterday as well as very good player from lower in the regular draft. Just shows what a great coach, great on-field culture and great development can do.You must have all of these ingredients. The Dogs just won a flag without what you'd term a great side on ability but with each one of those ingredients they were a great team and won a premiership.

Remember, we finished above the Bulldogs in 2014.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:23 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Just shows what can be done in a short time.............all this we are young and developing is a copout for mediocre hangers on..............Reckon it starts at the top with Marco LoGo and Trigg.Couple of blokes that aint big noters but work there guts out behind the scenes in the engine room.Everything else flows from there.Its just a matter of everyone having faith and belief in each other.If the off field crew have that attitude it will flow right through the club.............im hearing from people who know that the two top men are beauties.Whack in a strong willed couple of hardnuts like Silvagni and Bolton and we will fly.

PS............now that the Dogs have a flag i reckon Dalrymple is gettable.He has seen the fruition of his work and may now be looking for another challenge.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:37 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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Agree with most suggestions here, we have the right man as coach now and are doing things right off the field.

Just need to keep it going and not worry about external noise.

We won't copy the dogs, the lesson is to have a plan being works best with the personnel you have and get everyone going in the same direction.

It will take a while for us, our list isn't good, but if we do everything right we could see finals by 2019


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:39 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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What favourite sons did the Hawks trade and which big fish did they land

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:47 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Adam Chatfield wrote:
Agree with most suggestions here, we have the right man as coach now and are doing things right off the field.

Just need to keep it going and not worry about external noise.

We won't copy the dogs, the lesson is to have a plan being works best with the personnel you have and get everyone going in the same direction.

It will take a while for us, our list isn't good, but if we do everything right we could see finals by 2019


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Agree, although why not 2018?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:12 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Become a darling of the AFL and get umps on side and you are home.
80 frees to 48 over the finals series they even got more frees over in the West which is un heard of.
And these are the raw stats dont take into account all the one handed hand balls the tunneling the diving in on legs and the 103 tackles laid with only 3 Holding the ball decision.

That's what we can learn

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:23 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Mickstar wrote:
PS............now that the Dogs have a flag i reckon Dalrymple is gettable.He has seen the fruition of his work and may now be looking for another challenge.


Mick,

It is never going to happen. Come November SOS will have his BFF in place and that will go on for as long as SOS has his Job.

Carlton's next 3-5 years will live and die by the SOS/Brodie team.

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:27 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

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Sydney Blue wrote:
Become a darling of the AFL and get umps on side and you are home.
80 frees to 48 over the finals series they even got more frees over in the West which is un heard of.
And these are the raw stats dont take into account all the one handed hand balls the tunneling the diving in on legs and the 103 tackles laid with only 3 Holding the ball decision.

That's what we can learn


It was 30-13 in their favour when they played us.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:14 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Cazzesman wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
PS............now that the Dogs have a flag i reckon Dalrymple is gettable.He has seen the fruition of his work and may now be looking for another challenge.


Mick,

It is never going to happen. Come November SOS will have his BFF in place and that will go on for as long as SOS has his Job.

Carlton's next 3-5 years will live and die by the SOS/Brodie team.

Regards Cazzesman


In your opinion Cazz, regardless of the friendship with SOS, do you rate Brodie as a quality recruiter?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:28 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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99prelim wrote:
Cazzesman wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
PS............now that the Dogs have a flag i reckon Dalrymple is gettable.He has seen the fruition of his work and may now be looking for another challenge.


Mick,

It is never going to happen. Come November SOS will have his BFF in place and that will go on for as long as SOS has his Job.

Carlton's next 3-5 years will live and die by the SOS/Brodie team.

Regards Cazzesman


In your opinion Cazz, regardless of the friendship with SOS, do you rate Brodie as a quality recruiter?


I don't know him well enough re his recruiting thought process. He has been in the industry along time.

Wayne Brittain had him as his trusted confidant when he was at the Blues and I think Brittain is considered a very astute thinker of the game by those in the know. Brodie is also a close friend of Ross Lyons who doesn't suffer fools so based on those two friendships one would think he has some football smarts.

I have always found him to be a very easy going with a very good sense of humor. My verdict would be .......Extremely Street Smart. He and SOS certainly put together a great GWS list regardless of the free kicks they got earlier on. Davis, Ward, Scully, Patful, Shaw, Mumford and Griffin have been savvy picks. They basically had Buddy across the line until the 11th hour.

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:01 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Cazzesman wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
PS............now that the Dogs have a flag i reckon Dalrymple is gettable.He has seen the fruition of his work and may now be looking for another challenge.


Mick,

It is never going to happen. Come November SOS will have his BFF in place and that will go on for as long as SOS has his Job.

Carlton's next 3-5 years will live and die by the SOS/Brodie team.

Regards Cazzesman

Well Cazz,this time last year we made a massive playy for him (Fact ).If they wanted him that bad they shouldnt give up if they rate him so highly..........................and yes,he was almost over the line.

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