I've rewatched the entire game and just some additional thoughts

With 6 minutes left in the 1st quarter the score was something like 1.1.7 (hawks) to 0.3.3 (blues) (we may have been on 0.2). Regardless, over the next 6 minutes the hawks slammed on 7 goals (effectively 8 due to 2 supergoals).

Rewatching the game, that was the ONLY period where the hawks dominated - prior to that we were doing quite well and by that stage should have had at least 2 goals (fev/betts set shots).

I think a few people have overreacted to the loss due to how big to blow out was in those few minutes.

In terms of the game itself
- we lacked forward structure, looked much better with waite forward.
- Fev kicked 1.4 (+1 OOF) - in a regular season game we would normally expect him to have finished with 4.2
- similarly murphy kicked 0.3 (+1 into an opponent when he should have had a set shot). Again, you would normally expect a lot better in a regular season game given past performances
- of the younger leser lights very happy with the games of bower, armfield, ellard, jamison, grigg - bower, jamison+grigg particularly impressive and rarely beaten.
Others to impress - gibbs, houlahan

Fev - mixed game - chased but really needs to stop trying to throw his weight around. Too many crude hip and shoulder attempts rather than tackling (gave away 2-3 free kicks from such attempts, also risks suspension is he collects a player slightly late/high).
Betts - a game he would probably want to forget. Needs to get a lot more of the ball/not go missing if he is going to make it.

IMO, Betts is certainly one player who needs to step up this year.

Given his natural ability and the amount of ball that comes into Fev he should be getting 1-2 goals every game plus occasional bigger hauls.

Even allowing for the fact that tv gives only a limited view of the play there have been too many times in every Carlton game where I have not seen Eddie in the vicinity of a marking contest inside our 50.

When he is playing forward he should not move more than 20 metres from Fev's side 'coz 8 times out of 10 the ball is going to be heading in Fev's direction and more often than not there will 2 or 3 defenders trying to knock the ball out of Fev's grasp. As a goal-kicking small he should be front & centre every time.

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I agree 4th but we weren't very convincing in the first half. I remember sitting there thinking 'when are the hawks going to come out & thump us' - it just looked like it was going to happen! I don't think the result was as bad as what some have thought. There were plenty of positives to come out of the game.

I was really happy with Cloke. He's kind of like Carrots, he isn't blessed with great skills but will play within his limitations to be as effective as he can. I loved that he flew the flag when needed & he adds some extra grunt to an otherwise pretty skinny side.

I really think we missed Fisher quite a bit. Fev was being double & triple teamed & we could have done with another option, Jake had a quiet one but it was only his 2nd game for Carlton so he will get better with time.

Last week against Port I decided that Waite was definitely more suited to CHB but after playing the Hawks I decided that he was definitely more suited to CHF!! I would like to see him settle at CHB & when we are getting beaten I don't see a problem with shifting him forward - we did that effectively with SOS in the 90's.

I can't wait for Murphy to look a little more interested & see his skills improve. I know he'll get better but I think he cost a little with some really poor shots on goal.

I loved Hadley & look forward to seeing our midfield gel as they play more games together. Too many times I saw a stationary player calling for the ball with Hadley handballing a couple of meters in front of the player, clearly where they should have been running to. It cost us a turnover at times but for me it just shows that he's a class above our kids at the minute.

It's not all doom and gloom from where I sit. They'll get better, especially with Judd & Walker in the team.

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Murphy, Dawson & Ellis have played more than 15 games. Or better put, your group of 11 have played more than 50 games collectively to our group of around 15 games.
I think that you are getting a little carried away saying that the inclusion of Roughead, Guerra and Ladson making a difference to the result. I think the inclusion of Judd, Fisher and Walker along with guys that have spent along time out or recovering from injury in Cloke, Stevens and Fev would have more impact in the result.

I'm of the view that Waite plays better at CHB. But let me put that to the side for a minute.

I remember just before Pagan was sacked last year a knowledgeable poster came onto TC and talked of a conversation he had with his (I think) Essendon* supporting dad. His dad claimed that at the start of season 2007, we didn't know who would be Carlton's CHB, FB, CHF, or Ruck. Come just before Pagan was sacked and we still didn't know who would be our FB, CHB, CHF, or Ruck.

So, while I believe Waite is a better bet as a CHB, my only request for this year is that by the end of the season, I have some idea as to who is going to be a regular in each of those positions. In other words, let's figure out whether Waite is a CHB or a CHF and just play him there! C'mon Ratts, you know you can do it.

These 10 minute lapses however, will destroy us if they are regular.

You're right mate, we were 11 points down with less than 7 minutes to play.
Even though we struggled to get our hands on the pill for the rest of the quarter, we slowly got the play back on an even basis after quarter time.
In fact, both Kruezer and Fev had easy chances to put us back within 25 points in the 3rd quarter.
Not bad after being the best part of 12 goals down.

Whats pleasing is our ability to dig our heels in and not fold to a 100 point loss.

Small steps.

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Not only that we SHOULD have been ahead (horrible miss by betts/fevola) some basic skill errors elsewhere. We actually have more of the play in the first 1/2 of that quarter.

Stevens poster from 9 point range - no score
Betts in the pocket kicked straight accross goal - small forwards should eat them

Could have been very different .

but its the old story coulda woulda shoulda

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I've always preferred waite up foward though can see why ratten wants him down back given our backline. Hopefully with bower/jamison improving rapidly (and thornton back there) we will be able to move waite into a permanent forward role.

Personally I'd have waite as the primary/deep forward (ahead of fev who would get pushed out to CHF) - Wont kick as many goals as fev though would average at least 2/game (ie 45-50/yr). He would add another dimension though - guarantee a contest in the air and ground (something that fev sometimes doesnt quite do). Is just as capable as Fev of kicking a bag on ocassion. You only need to look back to rounds 9-13 last yr where waite kicked 4,3,4,1 and 5 in consecutive weeks (ie 3.4 average).

But then again I've always been open to the thought of trading Fev for the right price

Brown (the prick) offered two weeks with early plea.

Waite offered a repremand (not sure what for but)

http://www.afl.com.au/tabid/208/Default ... wsid=55617

absolutely - hence I havent mentioned kreuzers 9 point miss. However that doesnt change the fact that up until 6minutes left in the 1st quarter we were breaking even with the hawks (and ahead in some parts). For the rest of the game we broke even. There is little doubt that with just 1 of Judd/walker out there we wouldnt have allowed 7 goals in 6 minutes (ignoring that some of the frees were questionable at best).

All I am saying is too many people have overreacted to the blown out scoreline without considering the context of what happened

would have been for the stupid elbow to the guts post mark

He's lucky if you ask me. Was a very stupid thing to do.

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shit i left out carrazzo

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Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

Many of my thoughts have already been covered but I will make some observations anyway:

- Waite is most certainly a forward and I've said this all along. I think it is a waste playing him in defense. He is our most enigmatic and frustrating player but is a match-winner on his day up forward. He is an average kick from set shots but can pull off the sublime and we need his talents up forward. I understand the rationale for playing him in defense but I'd prefer to let Setanta develop down back and use Waite as a weapon up forward.

- Our general skill level is poor and as a result we don't capitalise when we have the momentum. We didn't deserve to win on the weekend but with better execution we would and could easily have given Hawthorn a real scare in the second half. But we squander promising forward thrusts by bad execution of basic skills or inexplicable decision making. So we create enough opportunities to effect some damage when going forward but it often comes unstuck at a crucial time. We need to work on this.

- What was perhaps even more concerning was that many handballs didn't hit their targets. Kicks you can sometimes forgive but handballs shouldn't land at peoples' feet, or completely miss their intended target from only a metre or two away. I know we are learning a new game plan but these skills are the bread and butter of the game and I'm not going to get too carried away yet but we really do need to get the basics right.

- Our players still look very uncertain, especially in defense. I guess confidence in themselves and in each other will improve with more games but we just look really nervous when the ball comes down into our defense or when we have a kick in or a chance to clear the ball from defense.

- As someone else mentioned earlier we seemed to struggle with some of the NAB Cup rules, especially the need to kick 20m for a completed pass. I lost count of the number of times we kicked short and were called to play on only because it was the NAB Cup. We just didn't really seem to get to grips with this rule and as a result we had to move the ball on more quickly and haphazardly than we otherwise would have which itself cause a few turnovers. It won't matter during the season when kicks only have to travel 15m though.

- Jordan Russell really needs to somehow get his hands on the footy a bit more, he 'looks' like a footballer but just can't get anywhere near it and this has plagued him during his entire career with us. I really want him to make it and still have faith but we need to get him far more involved.

- Bryce Gibbs was encouraging, great third quarter, Kade Simpson just terrific player to have, always puts his body on the line. Murphy got a lot of it but couldn't kick, good to see Stevens get 35 possessions. Houlihan superb delivery into the forwards and is probably our best kick in this situation but didn't have a huge impact on the game overall. Happy to see Kreuzer get a few kicks, Grigg did some good and some bad things but quite satisfied overall. Paul Bower I am a big fan of and as others have said his actual defensive work was pretty good but he still looks dodgy when he actually is in possession of the ball, you just don't know what will happen next. Hadley was ok and will be better for the run. Didn't see as much of Pfeiffer this week. Fev's kicking has been a bit off in the first two pre-season games, hopefully it's back to normal by Round 1. Eddie Betts needed to do more.

- We miss Fisher badly. Just gives us that extra target with a great pair of hands.

- Overall it was good to see us show some fight and we did definitely step up but Hawthorn also eased up a bit when the game was beyond our reach. Judd will be a massive inclusion obviously and Walker's run will give us more options. Need to give Hartlett a decent chance and see how he goes at CHF, especially while Fisher is out of the team.

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It’s a pity Saddington wasn’t picked to play against Hawthorn as maybe we might have stopped that Hawthorn run late in the first quarter, then again Ratten stated they will give every player a go and not worrying about the Nab Cup.

The whole backline played a lot better when Waite played at centre half forward (I think this is his rightful position) than when he was playing at centre half back, I think they should leave him in the forward line as when he makes a mistake (and he make a lot of mistakes in a match) the ball goes back to the defense with a chance that a Carlton player will kick it back to the forward line but when he plays in the backline and make a mistake it is more likely that it will result in a goal against us.

As well as some horrible footy, there were a number of positives for me.
Gibbs played the best game I've seen from him.
Simmo just keeps winning the ball and pressuring the opposition.
Bower continues to improve.
Fev's and Waite's aggression was fantastic. We need more of it across the team.
Jamo continues to show that he belongs.
Ellard continues to show glimpses. As does Kreuzer. And Pfeiffer.

I don't expect us to beat Hawthorn in round 22, but I'd sure like to see some real niggle and aggression from us next time around. Would love to see our players taking on Hodge and Lewis and others, and trying to hurt them as well as beat them.

Given that neither of Russell and Betts draw a lot of the ball when playing forward, I think they really need to be given the occasional run in midfield, or they're going to lose any confidence and form they might have pretty quickly.