You definitely were a fan of those 2 first round picks and have been consistent on that. We have to wait and see what becomes of Jagga.

We lost 5 experienced players not 3, and gained one in Haynes.

Kennedy wasn't going to move the needle of us as an inside outside mid, but trading him opened up the spot to gain Harry O'Farrell.
No doubt, like last year, Kennedy would have been good for us this year imo. He stays on the pitch, like Hewett does. The question diesel asks is which other mids/players could we have traded or delisted instead of Kennedy? For me it would have been contracted player (which come at a cost against the SC) Binns or Motlop.

Without Kennedy we would not have got the 2 first round picks before we cashed them in for Jagga, so it made sense to get pick 38 from Kennedy trade instead of dropping Binns or Motlop for nothing...unless Freo wanted Motlop for a similar pick. I would have traded Motlop for pick 38 at the drop of a hat, because I prefer Kennedy as the 3rd tall forward than Kemp. WE nearly got something for Kemp from the Saints but that was after the Kennedy trade.

The Martin decision was a no brainer. He would have been no good to our cause this year, or next. He was injury prone and only available for 3 games last year, and 11 games previous year and missing when we needed him vs Dees in the Final.

Lets get real about Martin at Cats too. Martin MISSED the FIRST 12 ROUNDS of 2025. He's played 4 of the last 5 games. His form thus far proves to me he's now a Flat track bully, and he will be lucky to be available for Cats in the Finals. Cats are not relying on him to win them a flag. We were. Martin was part of the problem at Carlton.

AS for Owies. I saw those missed sitters from him in the last 3 weeks and his season at WCE hasnt been a world beater. He's kicked 6 goals this year after 17 games. He turned 28yo in March. Frankly, Owies may have been of some help this year, but he wouldn't have won us games we lost. Harry and Charlies costly misses in front of goals would have seen to that.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Kennedy isn’t playing inside mid at the dogs. He is playing more half forward with rotations.
Nothing against Hewett but he was the one to traded, as he only plays one position. The fact we even traded Hewett in when we had so many inside mids at the time, including Ed and Setters was just plain madness and terrible list management. We need outside run and still do but for some reason our coaches still refuse to acknowledge this and play others like Cerra outside of the midfield.

Voss had dug his own hole.

Come off it mate. George completely transformed our midfield performance.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Kennedy was rated the worst kick inside 50 last season so I'm not sure what you guys are on about.

Huh?
Ed Curnow finished in 2021 and Setterfield was unreliable.
Hewett was a restricted free agent, so he cost us nothing and was a massive upgrade on Setters.
Yes he is inside only, but he is not the issue, you still need a couple of those types and between Cripps and Hewett they get the job done.
And I doubt Voss had any say in Hewett as he was traded in a couple of weeks after he was appointed head coach.
And also back in 2021/22 a contested game style would still win 70+% of the time.

The failure in outside run has been Walsh's injuries and Cerra not delivering on what he was traded in for.

I get your point on flexibility though, but if we had a couple of those outside players with burst speed, you'd still get rid of Kennedy and keep Hewett.

@GreatEx I told you some people took this stat as gospel!

Warped view of history Surrey. If we just stick to facts, we can agree on a couple things.

Yes Kennedy plays HF, but he’s been one of the constants in the middle from round 1 and released Bont to help forward of centre to help out Naughton..Jamarra had gone walk about and Darcy had the back issue.

Vossy isn’t List Manager

Have you already forgotten Hewett has been our most consistent this year? After 10 rounds he was clearly ahead of Kennedy for AA, and a few weeks ago Kennedy’s name has been discussed as the best recruit for the year… as a midfielder, who kicks goals. No one is saying Kennedy doesn’t deserve the accolade. But Kennedy was shipped out, not Hewett. The reasons obvious. I wish we could have kept Kennedy, but he wasn’t part of our list strategy….to decrease the number of inside mids. Have a look at how many more we have shipped out in the last 5 years. Not Hewett.

I love Kennedy as a forward, but ahead of Hewett in the middle? No way. Kennedy value comes from goal kicking. You seem to be comparing Kennedy the goal kicker vs Hewett the mid. Hewett has been much more durable for us and has been a better midfielder.

Hewett cost us nothing and players like him and Newman bought a bit of Swans culture we desperately needed. We had Kennedy since 2018, but needed more help for Cripps in the middle and our midfield changed for the better when Hewett joined us in 2021. . Have you thought why that was the case? Hint. Contrary to your hypothesis.

Given you are looking back at history, you seem to have forgotten Kennedy cost us a. 1st rounder iend of 2017 and was delisted in 2020. We gave him a life line as a rookie.

Kennedy was injury prone since his was drafted. I’m glad Kennedy’s body has been good for last 2 years. I have nothing bad to say about Kennedy, I’m just responding to some of your claims. You know Setterfield was another injury prone SOS pick, a mid who didn’t make it at Carlton, whilst Hewett has been kept. Obvious we have to keep improving. He had to find Setterfield a home. Only Effendopes offered us a 4th rounder we didn’t use,
.

Be fair. Hewett has been good for Carlton from day he walked into the club. Blame Austin and Lloyd. They make list decisions and thei liaise with Diesel on Final decision and strategy, and sure they take on what Vossy thinks, but that’s as far as Vossys influence goes.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

List management don’t create the game plan and player requirements. Coaches tell the list managers what type of player they want, and they source them.

We have completely unbalanced our list with trading in and keeping all inside one dimensional bulls and trading out outside runners.

Such as?

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

If our coaches have no say in list management and/or player movement as some seem to believe, then they need to be sacked... yesterday.

Where we find ourselves today is a complete football department failure... not just one bloke.

In saying that, it's good to see some green shoots but we have a ways to go...

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“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

I'm not going to dismiss Game Plan as a reason for losses, but the argument that remains consistent is no Gamer Plan can succeed if basic skills can't be executed. The one constant we hear week in week out is Carlton is the worst skilled team in the AFL. Every friggin week.


You seem to over look that the game plan doesn't plan for:

1. Direct Short passes missing intended lead, or going over their head. At least 10 last night. More evry other week
2. Missing set shots. at goal. 5 last night, usually up to 10 missed set shots weekly.

I think you will find our basic skills cost us from round 1. We should be playing Finals this year, but our stars forwards Charlie and Harry, have lost us winnable games from bad or a lack of reliable goal kicking routine.

I think we have to look at Coach and Game Plam, naturally, but more importantly we have to improve on the bare basics: kicking, handball, marking, spoiling, tackling, talking. We are way off acceptable minimum standard.

Agree? or do you think the players fail with the straight forward passing and straihght forward set shots because of the Game Plan? That will tell us and you a lot.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

You’re a smart person and if you review the delistings, you can work it out. I don’t need to tell you all but as an example, Cunningham, Carroll, O’Brian, Dow…..that’s just four examples of players with wheels. Irrelevant what we think or thought of them, but IMO, we haven’t replaced their type or age profile. There are others.

Bondi, please watch Thursday nights game, if you haven’t already, and focus on game plan and execution of both sides.
Then come back and tell me, if either team with one sitting in the eight have better execution than us?

EDIT

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

EDIT

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Player requirements: Would you agree List Mgt have responsibility to select skilled players? ie player capable of executing requirements?

All coaches come in and base their game plan on the players at their disposal: That's historical baggage or historical advantages.

I'm sure Voss has been let down by alot of players this year. Andrew Russell tells us Carlton had got use to losing and couldn't go on with the game after quarter time in the Prelim. Thhe Game Plan got us there in 2023. We blew it.




Absolutely. Coach always has SOME input, but NOT the Final say....not even Flea at Pies. He just said, he wanted players not picks, and away went Hines. The Coach does not name the targets and players to be recruited. That's impossible. The coach looks for types, unless the coach has existing relationships, which we only know of two: Fantasia and Houston. The List Manager and recruitment team select the actual player, negotiate with their Manager, and write up the contracts...whilst the Coach is coaching his List of players. Its that basic.

The decision is a balance between List Strategy, which involves Lloyd and Austin and Austin and Diesel, and team goals: ie Flag window top ups or rebuilding with youth, or a bit of both.

The Coach bases his Game plan on what he has at his disposal, and from there annually deffines players he wants to keep or cut loose. That's just a wish list.

Since 2015 the 66 game rebuild saw SOS recruit 58 players and Austin 25 players. The public, and that includes us the fans, saw the talent we had accessed with our plethora of first round picks, let alone first pick in the draft, and believed we made the hard decisions and the list would see Carlton along with another team with a plethora opf first round picks, GWS, would rule the Finals for the next decade.

Vossy didnt have a say on the recruitment of:
Pre SOS Cripps Docherty
SOS: Weitering, Curnow, McKay, Silvagni, DeKoning, Walsh, McGovern, Newman, Cottrell, Kemp, Pittonet
Austin: Saad, Williams, Boyd, Fogarty, Durdin

Since Voss came to Carlton, the following players have been recruited:

He wanted a small forward: Motlop, Fantasia, Evans, White, Young
He wanted support for Cripps inside: Hewett, Lord,
He wanted outside mid: Cerra, Smith
He wanted KPD depth: Young, Durdin
He wanted attacking HB: Cowan, Carroll, Cincotta, Wilson, Charleson, Monohan, Duffy
We needed to replace injury prone HFs: Elijah, Moir,
He wanted wings: Acres Hollands Binns, Camporeale FS
We needed KP depth: O'Keefe Lemmey O'Farrell

Bonus FS Ben Camporeale as an Inside mid

You do know the difference between asking for a type of player and selecting that type of player?
The Coach does not pick individuals and not one of the above players was hand picked by a coach .
Coach wanted types of players to play a role.

It is obvious who picks the talent. isn't it?



Not sure you are correct on that front. What would you have done with those outside mids below:

Outside mids we have let go since Voss: Philp, Cuningham, Murphy (retired), SPS, LOB, Dow, Fisher

Inside mids we have recruited since Voss: Setterfield, Stocker, Kennedy, Carroll, Hayes, Curnow (retired)

Small forward/ mids we have let go since Voss: Ramsay, Betts (retired), Gibbons, Honey, Owies, Lang, Polson.

You see and say what you want.

Coach didnt pick those players, nor delist nor trade. He gave his opinion. All coaches do that. They are paid for their opinion.
Coach doesn't kick the ball for the players passing the ball or taking a set shot.
Coach can't

I'm not sticking up for the coach because Im not in a position to judge him. I can guess, but Game plan is something kept close to the MC. But I can judges the players and the List Mangers who we have recruited or discarded, based on their output, successes and failings. The most damning is the skill execution, no one can hide from.

We lack skills and must put spotlight on players, AND coach, AND Football Mgr, AND Football Director, because the last 2 sign off on our strategy.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Ive watched the game a couple more times since watching it live. The game was between 12th and 13th. I wasn;t expecting either to have the same skills as players in the 8 who can exercise the basic skills. I get so angry when our players miss set shots at goal, let alone basic straight up passes by hand and foot. Not sure why that doesn't bother you. Yes I do. Your focus and your agenda must be solely on the coach, and the player skills are a reflection of the coach.

You are avoiding the last question. Why?

Players have basic responsibilities. So does Coach and List Mgr. If players lack the basic skills to execute a game plan, or were more respectful by honouring all the haRD WORK DONE UP FIELD by team mates to kick a straight forward kick at goasl to give us a chance to win, then I don't think any other coach will kick it for them either.

Facts we can measure. Skills.

I'm not a Game plan guru like you surrey.
I don't pretend to know what has been discussed in secret behind the 4 walls amongst the MC so I'll leave Game Plan to you. Maybe you can explain exactly where it is going wrong, because you haven't.

What I alluded to has nothing to do with Game Plan. Have a reread.

Just to make things easy for all of us on a subject easy for all of us to make an opinion, I'm suggesting that skills to hit a target or kick a set shot at goal is costly. The hypothesis I make, and its only a hypothesis, is that bad skills stuff up every well laid plan. Plain and simple. If you can't agree on that, you have no interest on judging player skills for AFL. Basics.

I can't believe you watched the game, and if you did, and had the volume up, it was very difficult to avoid hearing, the criticism of our players basic skills let alone seeing it with your own eyes. Its said every week, since round 1. Its there for you to have a re look and a re listen incase you missed it.

How could anyone not question the players skills our List Managers have selected?

I seem to get the impression that you think our players have the skills and desire to contend for a Flag in 2025?

The players have proven to me they don't have the skills and mental strength to win a Flag. As for the Coach. I will wait and see what the new coach can do with this group. I bet there will be alot of much needed changes to the list, but if there is only the mandatory minimum 3 changes made to the list, because you think its great, I will put a Flat up and bet the new coach failing to win the flag for us in 2026.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I can't keep up with such replies - so I'll try and stick to what I said in summary for the last time, so we can try to stay on the same page.

1. I don't believe you watched the right game - Thursdays game was between GWS v Essendon*. (GWS is in the eight). Look at their execution.
2. Our team was rated a 'premiership chance' before the season by the experts, incl. our club insiders. Nothing to do with me but yes, we should be playing finals in 2025 and Voss has flowered it up.
3. Our players skills aren't any better or worse than many others, they just have more time and space to execute, which our long bombs/contested old style of game doesn't allow. Do we have the best executers in the league? - hell no - but we aren't as bad as made out by the apologists.
4. List Management isn't the issue when your obsessed with getting and playing small forwards, ignoring outside midfielders and mostly delisting and not trading in runners.

Again - that's what I tried to reply in summary from the above waffle.....sorry if I missed something but I don't spend all my time on here.

Time and space is mostly done with players that have speed and skill more so than game plan - the ability to make space through power and leg speed and the ability to hit targets when doing so is the key.
So yes you are correct in questioning the loss of speed from the team, I have been doing this for the last couple of years as you know.
But using it to blame the coach is a bit of a swing, remember Voss wanted Houtson, the exact player we needed for half back run with the right amount of skill to execute plays that create time and space.
Walsh has had a pretty rough year and is not the player he was 2 years ago and the hail Mary on Smith didn't work out, 2 big loses on speed and skill.
As for the smalls, Motlop and Durdin have not progressed and adding Evans and White was the right move, but Evans was no good so we had to also add Young.
I would've preferred we added mids that could kick goals, but I don't know who was available in the SSP and MSD.
I only watched the second half this week and thought that having all the smalls playing was a great change and we gave ourselves more run.
I hope we do it this week against the Dorks.

Surely you can see all the game plan changes made this year to adjust to our injuries and loss of players.
E Hollands, Cottrell, Newman, McKay, Kemp and Walsh's struggles have had a lot bigger imapact than it would on most teams, mainly because our depth is kids.
And that is why I think the loss of Kennedy, Martin and Owies as mature depth has also affected us.
We don't need those players moving forward in my opinion but we have lost mature depth and most importantly, stability in the playing group which is the key.

Kennedy trade was done well after we did the pick swap to get Hawks first IIRC, Owies trade was needed for both picks to go to WCE for #3 though.
I agree on Binns and Motlop but going by Cerra's game in the second half this week, geez I wanted to trade him with all those fumbles and dropped marks, it shit me to tears.

I don't think Owies is a game breaker but mature reliable players is what we lack with all our injuries and with so many kids on the list, it has had an effect.
Agree on Martin, the problem with him was when he was available we really needed him when he should've just been icing on the cake.
Look how the Cats have managed him, in his 6 games this year he has been on ground between 57% - 67% only.
Last year we had him on for 2 games at 76% and 78% respectively (both times after coming back from injury) before he broke down again in R22.